Level feelings

[jens]

Now I have played a few levels with the last changes to level feelings (june 18 second edition). This time they seem to be at the right level, so they are useful predictors of what will be on the level. Good job :-)

One issue that will irritate a bit: they are almost always longer than one row, so you either get an extra more prompt, or only see the last part of the feeling. I suggest shortening the messages so they always fit on 1 line.

[Magnate]

Now I have played a few levels with the last changes to level feelings (june 18 second edition). This time they seem to be at the right level, so they are useful predictors of what will be on the level. Good job :-)

One issue that will irritate a bit: they are almost always longer than one row, so you either get an extra more prompt, or only see the last part of the feeling. I suggest shortening the messages so they always fit on 1 line.

Be my guest. They're in cmd4.c. You'll need to ensure that every possible permutation is less than 78 characters, so each feeling will need to be no more than 36. Drafting meaningful text concisely is something I do at work every day, so I'm happy for someone else to do it in Angband.

[Nomad]

Suggestion: more intuitive level feelings?

I'm really liking the new two part level feelings, but I'm wondering if they should maybe be made more intuitive so it's clearer what the two different parts of the message represent. It seems to me that combinations like "You feel nervous about this place" plus "you have a good feeling" have the potential to create a bit of a mixed message, especially for new players.

So how about a system of more explicitly worded messages, something like this for the danger level:

"The monsters here seem lethal "
"The monsters here seem dangerous "
"The monsters here seem very strong "
"The monsters here seem strong "
"The monsters here seem quite tough "
"The monsters here seem mundane "
"The monsters here seem weak "
"The monsters here seem feeble "
"The monsters here seem tame "

and this for the items:

"and they guard wondrous treasures."
"and they guard superb treasures."
"and they guard excellent treasures."
"and they guard great treasures."
"and they guard some good items."
"and they guard some decent items."
"and the items look mediocre."  
"and the items look unimpressive."
"and the items look like junk."
"and there are no items of note."

Thematically, these feelings would probably make more sense if we eventually implement the idea of level feelings that only show up after wandering the level for a bit, but still, I think a system like this might be easier for the player to make sense of.

Thoughts?

[relic]

Without having played the latest version, I think that your suggestions seems like an improvement.

One thing, is there room for a "You feel that" before these messages, so that it is more clear that they refer to feelings.


Another thing, maybe suggested before: As we are talking about feelings, should they be not 100 % accurate. That is, once in a while the feelings would be slightly wrong.

[Netbrian]

Another thing, maybe suggested before: As we are talking about feelings, should they be not 100 % accurate. That is, once in a while the feelings would be slightly wrong.

I don't care for this idea -- the feelings are vague and opaque enough that I don't see what clouding them further would accomplish.

[Derakon]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that level feelings, aside from the "special" feeling, are a misfeature and should simply be done away with. If the game isn't making interesting levels, then the solution isn't to tell the player; the solution is to fix the level generator.

That said, I'd rather have the game tell me something vague than something false.

[Nick]

A possible answer is sporadic level feelings - so some levels you get a feeling, most you don't. More likely the more dangerous/lucrative the level.

[dos350]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that level feelings, aside from the "special" feeling, are a misfeature and should simply be done away with. If the game isn't making interesting levels, then the solution isn't to tell the player; the solution is to fix the level generator.

That said, I'd rather have the game tell me something vague than something false.

excuse me, level feelings are good, nn2qq4them, id think a game with superb lvls each lvl would suck, vaults everywhere etc, its good that sometimes a good lvl spawns but usually they are quite plain.

please , deal with it~ (as it is, not as in change, plz no rage~)

[Derakon]

Currently I'm dealing with it by using the "No level feelings" option, thanks.

[Zireael]

I'm really liking the new two part level feelings, but I'm wondering if they should maybe be made more intuitive so it's clearer what the two different parts of the message represent. It seems to me that combinations like "You feel nervous about this place" plus "you have a good feeling" have the potential to create a bit of a mixed message, especially for new players.

So how about a system of more explicitly worded messages, something like this for the danger level:

"The monsters here seem lethal "
"The monsters here seem dangerous "
"The monsters here seem very strong "
"The monsters here seem strong "
"The monsters here seem quite tough "
"The monsters here seem mundane "
"The monsters here seem weak "
"The monsters here seem feeble "
"The monsters here seem tame "

and this for the items:

"and they guard wondrous treasures."
"and they guard superb treasures."
"and they guard excellent treasures."
"and they guard great treasures."
"and they guard some good items."
"and they guard some decent items."
"and the items look mediocre."  
"and the items look unimpressive."
"and the items look like junk."
"and there are no items of note."

Thematically, these feelings would probably make more sense if we eventually implement the idea of level feelings that only show up after wandering the level for a bit, but still, I think a system like this might be easier for the player to make sense of.

Thoughts?

I love your idea. Nomad is right, I personally would be confused. I'd bet there are more non-native English speakers playing Angband or other *bands than just old me.

[Tobias]

I love your idea. Nomad is right, I personally would be confused. I'd bet there are more non-native English speakers playing Angband or other *bands than just old me.

I would get confused too. But I always got confused by the old feeling too. Especially between superb and excellent. I always had to look it up every time.

[Jazerus]

I'm increasingly of the opinion that level feelings, aside from the "special" feeling, are a misfeature and should simply be done away with. If the game isn't making interesting levels, then the solution isn't to tell the player; the solution is to fix the level generator.

That said, I'd rather have the game tell me something vague than something false.

I dunno. Creating consistently interesting levels (by how we currently define interesting, meaning full of treasure) would result in tremendous power creep for the player even sooner than happens now. Now, if there were some way to motivate people to fully explore levels other than treasure, I'd be fine with level feelings going away.

[Derakon]

Yeah, that's part of the problem. People want reward with no risk, and the split level feelings are just feeding into that. I didn't intend "interesting" to mean "consistently giving nice items", but rather "consistently rewarding exploration". But the rewards needn't be material. Good tactical puzzles, unusual terrain, rare monsters, etc. all reward exploration.

[jens]

I'm really liking the new two part level feelings, but I'm wondering if they should maybe be made more intuitive so it's clearer what the two different parts of the message represent. It seems to me that combinations like "You feel nervous about this place" plus "you have a good feeling" have the potential to create a bit of a mixed message, especially for new players.

When I re-wrote/shortened Magnates version of two part feelings I kept all the old feelings intact for nostalgic reasons (i.e. those feelings refering to objects were you feel lucky/good/etc.). I agree with you that they do clash, but I did not want to remove them without first checking with the comunity.

So how about a system of more explicitly worded messages, something like this for the danger level:

I prefer the feelings not to be too explicit. They are just feelings, not observations. I have really tried to make the feelings as intuitive as possible, for instance I used a pattern in how the feelings are worded to help distinguish them from each other. I don't really feel your wording makes the order more intuitive.
One improvement I'd like to make though is to reduce the number of feelings, then it would be easier to have really distinctive wordings, and the feelings themselves would becom a bit more opaque.

Thematically, these feelings would probably make more sense if we eventually implement the idea of level feelings that only show up after wandering the level for a bit, but still, I think a system like this might be easier for the player to make sense of.

Thoughts?

A possible answer is sporadic level feelings - so some levels you get a feeling, most you don't. More likely the more dangerous/lucrative the level.

I do like the idea of not always getting feelings. Maybe sometimes you get the feeling at once, but sometimes you get the feeling after a bit of wandering, and sometimes you don't get any at all...

[Nomad]

I prefer the feelings not to be too explicit. They are just feelings, not observations. I have really tried to make the feelings as intuitive as possible, for instance I used a pattern in how the feelings are worded to help distinguish them from each other. I don't really feel your wording makes the order more intuitive.

One improvement I'd like to make though is to reduce the number of feelings, then it would be easier to have really distinctive wordings, and the feelings themselves would becom a bit more opaque.

Yeah, I agree that the order's not any more intuitive, and less fine division of feelings would definitely help. I guess my main point was that by splitting the feelings into two components they've already been made explicit for those who understand that the two parts of the message refer to danger and treasure; the information is already there, so vaguer wording just means players in the know will be able to read it while newer players won't.

Hmm. Maybe we could split the feelings so you get a danger feeling as soon as you arrive on a level, but don't get the treasure feeling until you've explored for a while? That could work quite well, since it would penalise players for immediately fleeing a dangerous level instead of sticking around.