Buggy mimic

[jens]

Still playing the Nighlty from May 24: angband-rd39a356436, on Windows 7.

The mimic in question did not show up on the monster list nor the object list. It was detected by Detect Monsters. When I tried to 'l'ook at it, the mode for looking at interesting objects did not stop on it, and when I switched to force look I only saw open floor when looking at it.

Feels like we are halfway to hiding the mimics ;-)

Was actually easier for me to spot it than of old, or rather it drew more attention to itself with not letting me look at it :-)

I had a savefile, but when checking that I really had it I managed to wake the mimic and then save it over my savefile... When the mimic was awake I could see it in monster list and I could look at it.

[jens]

Oh, btw, it was a ring mimic...

[jens]

This bug is still there. Now playing the nightly ec791bb (june 18). This time I do have a save file :-)

@ is a few steps from $ (mithril by the color). $ does not show up in the monster list, and not in the item list. I can't look at that location without using the 'o' option. And when I do that I see: 'You see an open floor'

[Magnate]

Opened as #1479, thanks.

[jens]

Good thing I'm testing stealth...

[CunningGabe]

This bug is still there. Now playing the nightly ec791bb (june 18). This time I do have a save file :-)

@ is a few steps from $ (mithril by the color). $ does not show up in the monster list, and not in the item list. I can't look at that location without using the 'o' option. And when I do that I see: 'You see an open floor'

I wrote the new mimic code, and that is working as intended for the moment. Money never shows up on the item list, and creeping coins are now essentially "money mimics". The weird interaction with looking was somewhat intentional to help disguise them.

Same with the mimic. Before the ring mimic attacks you, it doesn't show up anywhere, and then once you run into it or it attacks you, it shows up on the monster list. Eventually, the idea is for the mimic to show up on the item list, but doing that in a non-hacky way requires some thought.

[jens]

I wrote the new mimic code, and that is working as intended for the moment. Money never shows up on the item list, and creeping coins are now essentially "money mimics". The weird interaction with looking was somewhat intentional to help disguise them.

Same with the mimic. Before the ring mimic attacks you, it doesn't show up anywhere, and then once you run into it or it attacks you, it shows up on the monster list. Eventually, the idea is for the mimic to show up on the item list, but doing that in a non-hacky way requires some thought.

The first time I reported this it was with a ring mimic, this time just happened to be $. The weird looking interaction is OK for now I guess... But both = and $ were detected by detect monsters, without showing up in the monster list, that made it pretty obvious something strange was afoot...

[d_m]

I wrote the new mimic code, and that is working as intended for the moment. Money never shows up on the item list, and creeping coins are now essentially "money mimics". The weird interaction with looking was somewhat intentional to help disguise them.

Same with the mimic. Before the ring mimic attacks you, it doesn't show up anywhere, and then once you run into it or it attacks you, it shows up on the monster list. Eventually, the idea is for the mimic to show up on the item list, but doing that in a non-hacky way requires some thought.

Hi Gabe! Long time no see...

I was going to work a bit on mimics before 3.3 but if you are planning to then I can hold off. Don't want to co-opt your excellent work on mimics.

[Tobias]

There seems to be a minor bug where identifying a mimic doesn't force the monster list subwindow to update.
That means that the mimic doesn't appear in the monster list subwindow, until a change gets triggered by something else (like monster or player moving).
I just noticed it recently and hadn't had an opportunity to confim it.

I like the more surprising mimics in this version. But maybe there should be some kind of saving throw, search based maybe.

[Max Stats]

I wrote the new mimic code

I saw your pull request with your new mimic code. From the description, it looks great and seems to make mimics behave more like they are expected to from most gaming lore. I wanted to make one suggestion. I would like there to be at least a slight possibility of noticing a mimic before actually getting close enough for it to attack you. I would suggest tying the distance from which the character gets a chance to notice, as well as the chance of success, to the Perception skill. Maybe Rogues should get a tiny extra boost as well, unless the fact that they get the highest Perception skill to begin with seems to be enough of a bonus.

I like this because it gives value to a skill that currently has next to none. I also like the fact that this way characters aren't completely at the mercy of mimics. Unless I am mistaken, the only way to notice one as it stands is to either walk into it and get attacked or get lucky/guess right and hit it with a ranged attack. If you want to balance this out, the mimic's free attack upon failure to notice could be made tougher (perhaps bypassing AC reduction and/or giving possibility to stun).

Incidentally, how does the new code handle searching next to a chest mimic? It says that opening one triggers the attack. I'm thinking searching should have some possibility of triggering the attack, but also some possibility of the character noticing it is a mimic (with the chance of this tied to the Searching skill). Just imagine the character standing and looking very carefully at the chest. Possibly the mimic sees an opening and attacks, or possibly the character spots something suspicious and pulls back.

Anyway, I think the code is a great improvement as it stands, no matter what else is done.

[CunningGabe]

I saw your pull request with your new mimic code. From the description, it looks great and seems to make mimics behave more like they are expected to from most gaming lore. I wanted to make one suggestion. I would like there to be at least a slight possibility of noticing a mimic before actually getting close enough for it to attack you. I would suggest tying the distance from which the character gets a chance to notice, as well as the chance of success, to the Perception skill. Maybe Rogues should get a tiny extra boost as well, unless the fact that they get the highest Perception skill to begin with seems to be enough of a bonus.

I like this because it gives value to a skill that currently has next to none. I also like the fact that this way characters aren't completely at the mercy of mimics. Unless I am mistaken, the only way to notice one as it stands is to either walk into it and get attacked or get lucky/guess right and hit it with a ranged attack. If you want to balance this out, the mimic's free attack upon failure to notice could be made tougher (perhaps bypassing AC reduction and/or giving possibility to stun).

Incidentally, how does the new code handle searching next to a chest mimic? It says that opening one triggers the attack. I'm thinking searching should have some possibility of triggering the attack, but also some possibility of the character noticing it is a mimic (with the chance of this tied to the Searching skill). Just imagine the character standing and looking very carefully at the chest. Possibly the mimic sees an opening and attacks, or possibly the character spots something suspicious and pulls back.

Anyway, I think the code is a great improvement as it stands, no matter what else is done.

I'm glad you like the new mimics! I like your ideas -- I think it makes sense to give players a Perception roll to discover mimics (something like the traps roll). And I think you're right that searching should either discover or disturb a mimic. I'll work on adding these.

I'd love to hear any and all other mimic ideas -- including ideas for new mimics or lurkers. I'm hoping to add some new ones in 3.4.0.

[Max Stats]

I'm glad you like the new mimics!

I'm glad to report that the very first mimic I encountered under the new code was inadvertently outed by the splash effect from an Orb of Draining. Take that!

I like your ideas -- I think it makes sense to give players a Perception roll to discover mimics (something like the traps roll). And I think you're right that searching should either discover or disturb a mimic. I'll work on adding these.

Cool. Looking forward to it.

[d_m]

I'm glad you like the new mimics! I like your ideas -- I think it makes sense to give players a Perception roll to discover mimics (something like the traps roll). And I think you're right that searching should either discover or disturb a mimic. I'll work on adding these.

I'd love to hear any and all other mimic ideas -- including ideas for new mimics or lurkers. I'm hoping to add some new ones in 3.4.0.

One comment--I like the idea of a character's search score giving a one-time chance to discover the mimic, but I don't like the idea of making an explicit search command discover the mimic.

The reason for this is that it might create an optimal type of play where the player is constantly searching for mimics, since there's no other way to detect them. I'd rather not "encourage" a such a strategy.

I have similar views on detection, searching, traps, secret doors and such which I will hold off on expounding until 3.3 is out. They may be too variantish... we'll have to see.

[CunningGabe]

One comment--I like the idea of a character's search score giving a one-time chance to discover the mimic, but I don't like the idea of making an explicit search command discover the mimic.

The reason for this is that it might create an optimal type of play where the player is constantly searching for mimics, since there's no other way to detect them. I'd rather not "encourage" a such a strategy.

I have similar views on detection, searching, traps, secret doors and such which I will hold off on expounding until 3.3 is out. They may be too variantish... we'll have to see.

That's a good point, but there are already easy, safe ways to detect mimics -- for example, you can fire an arrow at a suspected mimic. (Or zap an attack wand, cast a spell, etc.)

[fizzix]

That's a good point, but there are already easy, safe ways to detect mimics -- for example, you can fire an arrow at a suspected mimic. (Or zap an attack wand, cast a spell, etc.)

Furthermore, this is already my preferred way of dealing with mimics. I carry around spikes in the early levels just to throw them at copper coins. Should this tactic be encouraged?