Connected stairs - something to consider

[Antoine]

V Devs might like to consider the following change:

With "connected stairs" on, when a character takes the stairs up after making less than (say) 100 moves on a level, there is a small chance (10-20%?) that they get the message "The stairwell caves in behind you" and they do not appear on a down staircase.

This gives the player most of the tactical benefits of "connected stairs", while making intense stair scumming harder.

Just a thought
A.

[Derakon]

I don't see any problem. You'd have to go down into a bad situation, then get chased up and also end up in a bad situation while having the staircase cave in behind you for this to materially affect gameplay. The odds of that happening are slim.

Ideally it'd only happen if you go up the same staircase you go down, though that would be harder to implement.

[PowerDiver]

What's the point of that? If newbies want connected stairs as a safety net, let them. Some day they will realize the game is better without connected stairs.

I've been thinking about the issue in relation to connected wilderness, where I can see how it would be jarring to not be connected. My best idea is what I would call semi-persistent levels. When you take a level switch, [only] the previous level is saved. Then, if your next switch is back to that level, instead of rolling a new level you use the previous one. Then you have to decide whether monsters should continue to move on the persisted level, and if they can follow you. From the "realism" point of view that required connected levels in the first place, I think the monsters should keep coming after you, but that makes things much nastier, probably too nasty.

I'll just stick to playing with disconnected level change.

[Timo Pietilä]

V Devs might like to consider the following change:

With "connected stairs" on, when a character takes the stairs up after making less than (say) 100 moves on a level, there is a small chance (10-20%?) that they get the message "The stairwell caves in behind you" and they do not appear on a down staircase.

This gives the player most of the tactical benefits of "connected stairs", while making intense stair scumming harder.

I have always thought about "infinite persistent" -levels. If you go up or down the same staircase you took previously, you end up in same level as before, only this time it is completely empty from items or if it is not too hard to code, same set of items and monsters you left behind without regenerating whole level. That leads to problem with preserving artifacts, should the artifacts still be there? If not, why not? What if you find same artifact later? It should then disappear from that level, but every other item stays? Not logical. Should we "trick" the game to produce same base item, but not turn it to artifact in that case? what to do about special artifacts: rings, lightsources, amulets?

That would also require that more than one up and downstairs are generated in every level.

Falling through trapdoor, using level teleport, alter reality or recall would reset the dungeon, no way to go back.

Dungeon features to reset: lights, object/trap/door knowledge, mapping lost (was I here before??).

One problem is town staircase. Should we replace it with portal, and no way to go back immediately? Kind of level teleporting trap? Maybe even remove recall, and put one of those portals in every level, so that you can go to town using that portal.

That would make stair-scumming plain useless without removing the escape-usage of them. It could also allow wandering back to that CGV you couldn't deal earlier if you still remember how to find it (I believe that would become pretty difficult very fast)

[d_m]

I have always thought about "infinite persistent" -levels.

It's not in the spirit of most *bands but I have definitely thought several times about building an Angband variant that had this kind of mechanism--a large procedurally-generated wilderness with persistent dungeon levels randomly scattered through, along with procedurally-generated religions, artifacts, classes, monsters etc.

I can trace my idea/desire to being completely fascinated with the dwarf fortress world generation process while simultaneously being unable to actually understand/play dwarf fortress :P

[buzzkill]

If the point is to prevent stair scumming, I see NOT giving the player a guaranteed first move after taking an up staircase is a simple and effective solution. Heavy scumming of the deep levels where it's most worthwhile to scum will eventually lead to death. Even if it's not a strong enough deterrent to stop scumming completely, it's a step in the right direction.

[will_asher]

I don't stairscum, but I like having connected stairs. For one thing, it makes no sense to me to go down stairs and not be standing on an up-staircase. And I can get the concept of the 'maze of staircases' so that it's not a problem to me to end up in a different level when I go up the same staircase I just went down. I also like having them as an immediate escape if I enter a level in a room full of danger.
Now that I've given my stance on connected stairs: I kinda like Antoine's idea of having an occational cave-in when you use an up stairs.

[Derakon]

Keep in mind that Antoine isn't saying that stairs always have a chance to collapse; only if you go up a staircase very shortly after having gone down it. As I noted, if you want stairs for escapes, the only time this can screw you is if you get two "oh crap must run" levels in a row, which in my experience doesn't happen remotely often.

If the point is to prevent stair scumming, I see NOT giving the player a guaranteed first move after taking an up staircase is a simple and effective solution. Heavy scumming of the deep levels where it's most worthwhile to scum will eventually lead to death. Even if it's not a strong enough deterrent to stop scumming completely, it's a step in the right direction.

I don't like this idea because it's far too subtle. Newbies aren't going to notice this until it kills them.

[Antoine]

If the point is to prevent stair scumming

It's a little more subtle: it's an attempt to make it still viable but interestingly more difficult.

A.

[AnonymousHero]

Just do it like Heng/Entro already!

[dos350]

please no~~~~~ ee

[buzzkill]

I don't like this idea because it's far too subtle. Newbies aren't going to notice this until it kills them.

Isn't that a good thing. Subtlety.

This is Angband, baby. Getting killed in new and unexpected ways is how you learn. Think of the positive effect this may have had on ~eee without even realizing it if had had been tucked in prior to his arrival on the scene.

You know, if the player wasn't already conditioned to expect the counter-intuitive first move... Well, my point is, the problem lies with the current policy, not my suggestion.

[AnonymousHero]

You know, if the player wasn't already conditioned to expect the counter-intuitive first move... Well, my point is, the problem lies with the current policy, not my suggestion.

Not always giving the player the first turn on a new level means that they can get insta-killed upon entering a level through no fault of their own (e.g. Time Hounds). That's a bad thing. Much better to solve the real problem: completely fresh levels on every up/down.

[buzzkill]

Not always giving the player the first turn on a new level means that they can get insta-killed upon entering a level through no fault of their own (e.g. Time Hounds). That's a bad thing. Much better to solve the real problem: completely fresh levels on every up/down.

Dying through no fault is of your own is bad, but would occur rarely (assuming a sane playstyle), and there are better ways to handle it (I'd prefer 1 HP survival, though far from perfect).

DaJ doesn't guarantee first move (I'm pretty sure), and it's NEVER killed me. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just that it NEVER has.

[Timo Pietilä]

Dying through no fault is of your own is bad, but would occur rarely (assuming a sane playstyle), and there are better ways to handle it (I'd prefer 1 HP survival, though far from perfect).

DaJ doesn't guarantee first move (I'm pretty sure), and it's NEVER killed me. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just that it NEVER has.

AFAIK all 4GAI variants try to put stairs in safe location, not in the middle of the big room where you can be in LoS of many nasties.