Max depth of artifacts r1886

[Psi]

In my latest game I was surprised not to see a single 'thanc or Thranduil. On checking artifact.txt I see they all have max depths.

It doesn't seem right that any artifact can be generated on DL1 (admittedly given a ridiculous roll) but they can't all be generated on DL98. Admittedly I wouldn't be using a 'thanc by that stage, but I do not like the thought that I would have to go shallower to find certain items. Particularly an item like Thranduil which is a key find if you don't have ESP yet.

A player shouldn't be penalised by what he can find just because he is deep in the dungeon IMHO.

[Pete Mack]

@Psi --
I agree; thranduil is potentially as valuable at dl 99 as it is at dl 30.
As for the thancs, I only agree partially: I agree that given a dagger at any depth, it should have a chance of being a Thanc. I don't agree that daggers should appear below (say) dl 80. The only one that is possibly useful is Rilia, and it is quite rare.

A possible compromise: the minimum level of the item in a drop should be based on monster level, not dungeon level, so novice mages still have a good chance of dropping crap.


In fact, I'm not likely to use that new artifact.txt--a lot of them look too strong.

[Magnate]

@Psi --
I agree; thranduil is potentially as valuable at dl 99 as it is at dl 30.
As for the thancs, I only agree partially: I agree that given a dagger at any depth, it should have a chance of being a Thanc. I don't agree that daggers should appear below (say) dl 80. The only one that is possibly useful is Rilia, and it is quite rare.

A possible compromise: the minimum level of the item in a drop should be based on monster level, not dungeon level, so novice mages still have a good chance of dropping crap.

In the absence of a re-working of item drops, max depths for artifacts are a long-planned attempt to address TMJ. There are a lot of artifacts which are simply not useful later on in the game, despite being really quite exciting in the earlier part of the game. The obvious solution to this is max depths. The fact that daggers of slay orc can still drop at dl99 when 'thancs can't is unfortunate, but is not a reason not to implement this solution. One day the same thing will be implemented for ego types. (There's no reason why daggers could not be given a max depth of 80 already - the facility exists.)

I don't agree with Psi that every artifact should be able to drop at dl99: there's been consensus for a long time that this should not be the case.

Now, Thranduil is a bit of an anomaly: it's an otherwise very weak artifact, with telepathy. While telepathy is binary, as it is now, it's massively overpowered and makes any item valuable throughout the game. If telepathy is re-worked to be granular (ticket #1015), this problem will go away. In the meantime, if the consensus is to keep Thranduil available until dl100, I could live with that tweak.

[Psi]

Now, Thranduil is a bit of an anomaly: it's an otherwise very weak artifact, with telepathy. While telepathy is binary, as it is now, it's massively overpowered and makes any item valuable throughout the game. If telepathy is re-worked to be granular (ticket #1015), this problem will go away. In the meantime, if the consensus is to keep Thranduil available until dl100, I could live with that tweak.

I'd certainly want to see that as a minimum. I haven't been through the list to see if there are any other similar issues. Thanks for looking at this.

[Derakon]

I've never really understood how you can consider artifacts to be junk. I've always liked finding them, even if I don't even bother to pick them up. They only show up once, so they won't keep bothering you.

I've no problem with banning Daggers of Slay Orc at level 99, but artifacts are another thing entirely.

[PowerDiver]

Add me to the list who do not want maximum depths on artifacts. TMJ was never the problem. Lack of efficient squelching has always been the problem.