The Angband dungeon generation discussion thread

[d_m]

Which begs the question - what is the usual amount?

According to Angband FDA regulations, one Ration of Food (0.8 lbs, so about 0.36kg) may contain up to 0.3g of dragon excrement and still be usable via the (E)at command. Shocking but true!

EDIT: Also, pedant alert! MarbleDice's quote doesn't beg a question, it raises one!

EDIT2: That should probably be 0.03g or 0.003g, 1/1000th dragon excrement is pretty excessive. Then again it would be consistent with how much life in the middle ages sucked!

[Nick]

EDIT: Also, pedant alert! MarbleDice's quote doesn't beg a question, it raises one!

Although *Magnate's* statement could be read as an assumption that there is a normal amount...

[d_m]

Although *Magnate's* statement could be read as an assumption that there is a normal amount...

I will escalate this situation: the statement begs the question "Is there a usual amount?" not "what is the usual amount?"

[Nick]

I will escalate this situation: the statement begs the question "Is there a usual amount?" not "what is the usual amount?"

I'm losing badly here, I need a new direction.

Haven't you derailed this thread enough?

[Djabanete]

By the way --- I know I said I don't like special terrain, and I don't, but I wouldn't mind seeing occasional exceptions in vaults. Deep pits or lava (things that prevent movement but don't block LOS or ranged attacks) could add a layer of difficulty (which seems warranted in vaults), without being too complicated.

I'm envisioning a vault consisting of concentric rings of lava full of Quylthulgs

[Atarlost]

We've got I think four things: permanence, permiability to creatures, permiability to projections, and visibility.

We curretly have:
Floor: permanent (exceptions for earthquakes), permiable to creatures, permiable to projections, permits LOS
Wall: diggable (in three harndess levels), impermiable to creatures (exception PASS_WALL on incorporeal creatures) impermiable to projections, blocks LOS
Permanent Wall: permanent, impermiable to creatuers, impermiable to projections, blocks LOS

Off hand a few special terrains:
Magma: permanent, impermiable to creatures (possible exception elemental fire creatures) impermiable to projections (because of air turbulence) allows LOS
Chasm: permanene, impermiable to creatures (possible exception fliers) permiable to projections, allows LOS
Illusionary Walls: removable by magic?, permiable to creatures, permiable to projections, blocks LOS
Curtains: easily diggable, permiable to creatures, block projections, block LOS
Clear Curtains: easily diggable, permiable to creatures, block projections, permits LOS

I'd say making an interesting terrain type is a simple matter of finding an empty slot in the 2x2x2x2 table, finding something that can plausably fill it, and if it blocks movement optionally making a flag for exceptions and figuring out which monsters should have it. If a terrain type doesn't sit in a different slot from an existing type it's probably not interesting enough to add.

[Djabanete]

We've got I think four things: permanence, permiability to creatures, permiability to projections, and visibility.

We curretly have:
Floor: permanent (exceptions for earthquakes), permiable to creatures, permiable to projections, permits LOS
Wall: diggable (in three harndess levels), impermiable to creatures (exception PASS_WALL on incorporeal creatures) impermiable to projections, blocks LOS
Permanent Wall: permanent, impermiable to creatuers, impermiable to projections, blocks LOS

Off hand a few special terrains:
Magma: permanent, impermiable to creatures (possible exception elemental fire creatures) impermiable to projections (because of air turbulence) allows LOS
Chasm: permanene, impermiable to creatures (possible exception fliers) permiable to projections, allows LOS
Illusionary Walls: removable by magic?, permiable to creatures, permiable to projections, blocks LOS
Curtains: easily diggable, permiable to creatures, block projections, block LOS
Clear Curtains: easily diggable, permiable to creatures, block projections, permits LOS

I'd say making an interesting terrain type is a simple matter of finding an empty slot in the 2x2x2x2 table, finding something that can plausably fill it, and if it blocks movement optionally making a flag for exceptions and figuring out which monsters should have it. If a terrain type doesn't sit in a different slot from an existing type it's probably not interesting enough to add.

I rather like the Illusionary Wall idea, although I think Telepathy and the regular gamut of detection magic renders it essentially identical to a floor tile later in the game.

Thought-provoking post.

[buzzkill]

I think keys & locked doors could work IF: 1) they were all generic and any key would work in any locked door. So that you didn't have to look for a particular key, but once you used a key it would be used up so that you'd have to find another key to open another locked door. 2) they didn't take up inventory space.

I mentioned locked doors and keys, not as new features scattered randomly about, but as replacements for the all too obvious sercet doors (the ones at ends of dead end corridors, included in set room types, and maybe a few others). I find these doors to be fairly useless, adding nothing to the game but the need to search for a few turns.

My vision for locked doors is something like this. Obvious secret doors would become locked doors. All keys are identical and fit all locks. All locked doors would unlock (1 turn) using a key, or could be picked using lockpicks (more than 1 turn). Keys would be stored in a free keychain/quiver (no inventory slot) and would only be found occasionally in the dungeon (gentrate 1 per level, never drop), and would be consumed upon use. Lockpicks (which are essentially optional equiptment) could be purchased in town, would be somewhat expensive and fragile, and would be stored in the inventory. In this way 'key management' becomes a feature. Do you want to use one of your limited supply of keys to unlock this door, carry lockpicks in your inventory, or find another way around (of course tunneling adjacent to the door would still be an option). Monsters have no need for keys and can move through locked doors (unlocking them as they go) just as they move through secret doors currently. Did I leave anything out?

I don't know for sure, maybe I'm over-complicating it, but it seems like more fun than "Uh oh, anther dead end. Hmmmm, I guess it's time to hammer the s key."

[fizzix]

I don't know for sure, maybe I'm over-complicating it, but it seems like more fun than "Uh oh, anther dead end. Hmmmm, I guess it's time to hammer the s key."

I really think a lot can be improved by having searching find things other than doors traps. By that I mean clues as to what monsters are on the level.

[RogerN]

Regarding secret doors, I recently came to the conclusion (for my own variant) that secret doors which block access to the next staircase are obnoxious and should be avoided if possible. On the other hand, secret doors which lead to hidden treasure rooms are a good gameplay mechanic. Note, however, that I plan on putting less emphasis on detection magic (detecting hidden doors and treasure) and more emphasis on passive searching skill.

Obviously to handle to secret doors like this, you'd need to analyze the dungeon connectivity in detail. That might not be a route that Vanilla wants to take.

[Derakon]

ToME has illusory walls in some areas, and generally they're just annoying -- you know they're there, but you have to either do a lot of headbanging or look at each individual tile to see if you can pass through it.

[will_asher]

I mentioned locked doors and keys, not as new features scattered randomly about, but as replacements for the all too obvious sercet doors (the ones at ends of dead end corridors, included in set room types, and maybe a few others). I find these doors to be fairly useless, adding nothing to the game but the need to search for a few turns.

My vision for locked doors is something like this. Obvious secret doors would become locked doors. All keys are identical and fit all locks. All locked doors would unlock (1 turn) using a key, or could be picked using lockpicks (more than 1 turn). Keys would be stored in a free keychain/quiver (no inventory slot) and would only be found occasionally in the dungeon (gentrate 1 per level, never drop), and would be consumed upon use. Lockpicks (which are essentially optional equiptment) could be purchased in town, would be somewhat expensive and fragile, and would be stored in the inventory. In this way 'key management' becomes a feature. Do you want to use one of your limited supply of keys to unlock this door, carry lockpicks in your inventory, or find another way around (of course tunneling adjacent to the door would still be an option). Monsters have no need for keys and can move through locked doors (unlocking them as they go) just as they move through secret doors currently. Did I leave anything out?

I don't know for sure, maybe I'm over-complicating it, but it seems like more fun than "Uh oh, anther dead end. Hmmmm, I guess it's time to hammer the s key."

I like those ideas.

[Djabanete]

Secret doors are baloney, IMO. Half of the reason I play warriors is so I can tunnel right through them.

Keys and magically locked doors could be cool in certain kinds of vaults. I'm imagining vaults with colored doors that could only be unlocked by the corresponding key, which would be somewhere else in the vault. Keys would not carry over from one level to the next --- they'd vanish from your inventory as soon as you left the level.

[d_m]

Secret doors are baloney, IMO. Half of the reason I play warriors is so I can tunnel right through them.

Keys and magically locked doors could be cool in certain kinds of vaults. I'm imagining vaults with colored doors that could only be unlocked by the corresponding key, which would be somewhere else in the vault. Keys would not carry over from one level to the next --- they'd vanish from your inventory as soon as you left the level.

If you wanted to go that route, having magically perma-locked doors with magical switches somewhere else on the level seems better.

[Derakon]

I always found the key system in Diablo to be rather pointless (where you can buy or find keys which are occasionally needed to unlock chests you can find in the wilderness). I'm not really seeing the difference between that and needing skeleton keys to unlock random doors in the dungeon. Things get particularly screwy when you can just go around the doors through any number of means. So I'm going to vote no on using keys "in general", even if they don't use up an inventory slot.

Keys in vaults might be interesting, but I'm having trouble seeing how they'd amount to more than "you have to go over here before you can go over there".