Comp 219

[wobbly]

I suspect a fox buff enough to fight a dragon is capable of finding a way to pick up & carry things. At the end of the day shape-shifting is not going to work if it fails the fun test. Not being able to pick up things is unfun. It's maybe viable if fox-form was cheap enough for constant switching but I suspect just letting the player pick up is even simpler.

I could get behind higher fail casting shapeshifted. I'm not sure there's a good reason to disable casting shifted. Every animal in Tolkien talks (& trees/plants often do to) & I suspect if I search hard enough I'll find the eagles or something similar using magic.

Personally I'm more interested in fox form being a stealth form then a melee form. For that you really need to be able to pick-up or at least change with the same convenience as swapping in a mouse ring (the SP cost prevents it being a simple swap at the moment). Ideally you want to still access your detects too, but a big enough infravision boost might be enough for early game.

[PowerWyrm]

you enter fox form so you can fight.
you need to heal.
you leave foxform and quaff.
you enter foxform so you can fight.
you need to heal.
you leave foxform so you can quaff.
you enter foxform so you can fight.
you need to ?phase.
you leave foxform so you can ?phase.
you enter foxform so you can fight.
you need to do an AOE attack.
you leave foxform so you can do a poison ball.
you enter foxform so you can fight
you see a wand that may be TO.
you'll need to leave foxform to can pick it up.
You have learned the rune of aggravation.

Hmmmmm.

There must be a better way.

You queue up HT Warrior and enjoy your life.



I get that foxform needs a penalty of some kind, given how powerful it is, but I wonder if not being able to pick things up is the best one? I probably can get on board with not being able to use spell books or magical devices or shoot missiles, but not being able to pick up objects or quaff I think is too much (and not much logical). What about an even bigger dex bonus and a constitution penalty?

Yeah this is the reason why I don't play druids in this version. When porting the class to my variant, I'll simply add the "fox" as a new mob and use the current shapeshifting code to deal with fox form. You'll get the bonuses, with the usual 40% penalty to hps to compensate.

[Nick]

From the current master thread:

Thanks for the excellent druid comments. Its unsurprising I guess that the shapechanges aren't balanced correctly as they're so new. I think definitely shapechanged players should be able to pick up objects, but probably still not do anything else.

I'm not changing anything in the new classes at the moment because we're in the middle of a competition and I'm still collecting feedback on them and I'm also in the middle of coding new monster AI features. But I'm not considering the new classes as finished yet; maybe not even close.

[Sky]

From my experience with early fox form, i thought it was just right - the problem was that it came too early. +Spd +blow should have been a 30+ spell, but the concept works.

Imho:

1st available form: a retreat/panic form. Something whose main purpose is to GTFO.
Lets name it Fox Form, +3 Stealth, +5 Spd. Some combat penalty.
Why not A: cover tracks.

2nd form: a tank form, lets call it BearForm. +AC +CON. Normal melee, maybe pStun. Maybe slight +hit. A: roar (cone of fear)

3rd form: a combat form, let's call it .. idk, Treant?? +AC +blows +hit +dmg. pBlind pStun FA.
A: AoE melee

4th and final: Dragon Form. Breath, immunities, +Spd, general badassness.


So you have a character which is both a decent healer (as paladin) and foghter (as warrior or even better) BUT must shift between the two, losing an action.

That's your druid class.

Im not sure if right now switching between form and human takes time - if it doesn't, it should.

[Derakon]

One possible approach to this: let the druid just be flat-out terrible in unmorphed form. Lousy HP, mediocre stats, poor skills, etc. Then you can make different forms that each provide a substantial boost at some specific thing, while retaining full capabilities otherwise (picking up and using items, casting spells, etc.). For example:

* A combat form (bear?) that's somewhere between paladin and ranger in terms of combat prowess. Boost HP (and instantly regain ~30-50% HP when you become a bear), gains an extra attack at some clvl, etc.
* A spellcasting form (owl?) that gets better cast stats and recovers SP quickly (maybe recovers a chunk of SP when you shift into it). Since druid spells aren't strongly shared with other classes, this can afford to be a "best possible" at what it does, on the same tier as mage/priest. Unmorphed druids would have worse spellcasting stats than mage/priest do, though probably still keep the min-0% failure rate.
* A stealth form (fox). Again, not as good at stealth (or trap perception/disarming) as a rogue is, but better than probably anyone else, so long as they maintain the form.

Basically you get a class that can pretend to be other classes, while retaining access to its own spell list; however, it's not as good as the classes that it imitates. Versatile, but not powerful. It must be not as good as the pure class because then why would you ever play that pure class? Just play a druid and shift into the relevant form, then stay there.

I'm not convinced a fourth form is warranted. The above three cover a form for exploration (fox), a form for brute combat (bear), and a form for ranged/spellcasting combat (owl). I'd want to see a compelling niche for a fourth form before adding it. That said, having the forms evolve over time (better stat boosts, etc.) wouldn't be unreasonable IMO.

[Sky]

I suggested a 4th form to differentiate between low-level combat forms (no bonus speed or blows, basically good to tank ologs) and high level, uniques-ripping combat form. Otherwise you risk a all-or-nothing character who cant do anything until hitting a specific CL.

Also, i do support the druids inability to access his equipment, needing to commit to a specific form (or lose an action; changing from one form to another in 1 turn could be possible). This demands more power from the shapeshift.

Im ok allowing maybe spellcasting; maybe only in higher forms? It does shuft the balance substantially though.

[Nick]

1st available form: a retreat/panic form. Something whose main purpose is to GTFO.
Lets name it Fox Form, +3 Stealth, +5 Spd. Some combat penalty.
Why not A: cover tracks.

2nd form: a tank form, lets call it BearForm. +AC +CON. Normal melee, maybe pStun. Maybe slight +hit. A: roar (cone of fear)

3rd form: a combat form, let's call it .. idk, Treant?? +AC +blows +hit +dmg. pBlind pStun FA.
A: AoE melee

4th and final: Dragon Form. Breath, immunities, +Spd, general badassness.


So you have a character which is both a decent healer (as paladin) and foghter (as warrior or even better) BUT must shift between the two, losing an action.

That's your druid class.

Im not sure if right now switching between form and human takes time - if it doesn't, it should.

Interesting. The current forms are

• fox - principally stealth/escape
• pukel-man - this is the tank, with +CON, +STR, -SPD, sustains and damage reduction (every blow does 10 less damage)
• bear - this is the combat form, but probably needs some work
• eagle - gets pConf, pBlind, FA, SI, pFear, big boost to movement speed, and can fly over traps - meant to be for quick movement (raiding vaults, etc) but the no pickup rule hurts it

And currently yes, changing takes a turn in both directions.

[Derakon]

My suggestion was predicated on the assumption that you'd basically never be out of a shapeshifted form, but you'd need to pick which form to use wisely (and spend a turn shapeshifting, yes). That's why I suggested that unshifted druids be basically terrible -- with the implication that you're still terrible at everything else when you're in a form that's good at one thing. But if the game is balanced around you always being shifted, you can have access to your basic commands and spellcasting when shifted.

I can see there being a fourth form that's good at several things, as a reward for making it to high level. Kind of the equivalent of mages getting Banishment or priests getting Banish Evil.

Nick: what kinds of scenarios do you envisage the pukelman being used vs. the bear? I feel like there's a lot of overlap between tank and melee combat.

[bron]

I never got the hang of the shape-shifting business, and found the whole process annoying. My comp character basically never used those abilities. But the Druid does get (up to) 5 blows / round, which is pretty good, and Meteor and Rift, which are great, so I didn't feel like the character was underpowered.

[Voovus]

And currently yes, changing takes a turn in both directions.

Please check this. De-shapeshifting appears to be free.

[Nick]

Please check this. De-shapeshifting appears to be free.

Checked - and you're right

[wobbly]

So playing a bit & something I'm finding a real hassle with fox form is the str drop & encumbrance. The issue is I don't know how much free weight I need to keep & once in fox form I need to change back to drop items. Not sure what's best here, either the game needs to communicate how much carrying capacity you lose or it needs to be clearer what the exact relationship between str & carrying capacity is.

[Thraalbee]

So far I've used shapeshift only to reduce my turn count. Fox form is 2x faster so even slowed at -2 you are walking nearly twice as fast. Eagle form is the fastest, not sure if it was 3x or not, but hasted at speed 20 or so plus eagle form makes a huge difference.

[wobbly]

Had a crash taking the down stairs to dlvl 21. Nothing much I can think of to add. Whichever build is on angband.live

[Nick]

Had a crash taking the down stairs to dlvl 21. Nothing much I can think of to add. Whichever build is on angband.live

I think angband.live has the pre-run-bug build (212), which has a level generation crash bug; the latest build (217) has neither bug. I think.