Comp 216

[Pete Mack]

@bron--good point. I'd forgotten it wasn't really a game parameter.

[bron]

skip-level 5

skip_level is not configurable on the "birth" menu, and surely editing constants.txt is out of bounds: there's plenty of stuff in there that would significantly change the character of the game if unlimited edits were allowed.

[Pete Mack]

All you comp types: why not try this with connected stairs and skip-level 5 or so? The rules dont forbis it. Then you don't need to worry a out ?DD and finding stairs so much. (Although that first 25 DL plunge at cl 3 or so would turn you into a thrall character.)

[Gwarl]

At this point I don't think the feature branch is to blame for any of this, and not even the randarts. As I understand it new rogue probably isn't even as strong as standard rogue (although the lack of exp penalty might be an advantage).

At this point I believe we have to blame the players

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Given that it's almost time for the Tour de France...

These "Lance Armstrong" turncounts are outrageous. Is this something that WADA needs to look into?

[Nick]

Wow. It just may mean the new branch needs rebalancing...

I'm putting it down to that, plus current randarts are OP, plus connected stairs, plus play with all runes/flavors known - have I missed anything?

The other thing to remember is that there are two main parts to the plan for 4.2, and the other one is a redo of the monster list

[Pete Mack]

The comp wins are getting into epic territory, previously seen only in Cliff Stamp's NPP win (small levels, randarts.)

Wow. It just may mean the new branch needs rebalancing...

[Pete Mack]

Wow. So are the HP on the winners. 684HP, and that is after killing M for CL 38.

[Gwarl]

These turncounts are insane!

[Nick]

I admit I haven't really thought this through, but I don't agree. The XP penalties make it harder/slower for the powerful race/class characters to advance (e.g. a High Elf mage vs. a Human warrior). This means that in the exact sort of situation we are in with the competition, you have to consider the trade-offs. A level-46 High Elf Mage with zero-fail Mass Banishment is basically unstoppable, but if getting to that point takes you too many turns, you lose.

I don't think this competition should be taken as a template - in a more normal competition, we would have fixed race and class and the question wouldn't arise.

I also admit that the lesson being taught by the current situation on the competition ladder is "find a *thanc artifact on level one", rather than anything to do with race, class, or XP penalties :-)

That is a good point. Re-work of artifacts will have to consider that...

[bron]

XP penalties

I admit I haven't really thought this through, but I don't agree. The XP penalties make it harder/slower for the powerful race/class characters to advance (e.g. a High Elf mage vs. a Human warrior). This means that in the exact sort of situation we are in with the competition, you have to consider the trade-offs. A level-46 High Elf Mage with zero-fail Mass Banishment is basically unstoppable, but if getting to that point takes you too many turns, you lose.

I also admit that the lesson being taught by the current situation on the competition ladder is "find a *thanc artifact on level one", rather than anything to do with race, class, or XP penalties :-)

[Derakon]

Aha, someone has noticed

I have never been a fan of XP penalties; I don't feel that there's really a need to balance races and classes against each other. So when it comes time to redo races, I'm inclined to remove XP penalties from there too.

Opinions, as always, welcome.

Strong agreement. Even if races/classes needed to be balanced against each other, XP penalties are not the way to do it.

XP penalties were an attempt to ensure that in a tabletop party-based game, each character would be able to contribute roughly a similar amount even though one hit things with swords and one harnessed cosmic powers. They were a flop even then. They don't belong in a singleplayer game.

[wobbly]

So more comments on fox form. The possibility of fox form as a stealth form is interesting but completely dependant on it working in melee. Having to drop out of fox form constantly (no pick up, no detect) is managable if you're not actually using your mana, if you're not also changing for combat. Just avoiding fights isn't realistic. A snake in a corridor, bang 2 more mana.. Effectiveness is very dependant on weapon damage. Seems the opposite of how a shapechanger should be. It's one thing for weapon damage to count, part of the equipment merge thing, another for the design to exasperate the problem. An extra blow and minus damage - that makes the weapon matter more.

[Nick]

I note that the experience-needed-to-advance-a-level multiplier seems to only apply to the character's race, and NOT its class (i.e. the multiplier is not affected by the choice of class)? Is that a bug or a feature ?

Aha, someone has noticed

I have never been a fan of XP penalties; I don't feel that there's really a need to balance races and classes against each other. So when it comes time to redo races, I'm inclined to remove XP penalties from there too.

Opinions, as always, welcome.

PS: Also, what Gwarl said - I strongly suspect blackguards are currently quite OP.

[Gwarl]

Feature I believe; all the new classes are experimental and need balancing. One of them might be OP.