Competition 123

[Nick]

Competition 123 is now available from the competition page; it is a Human Warrior from the Angband 3.4 release candidate.

Note that comp 122 is nearly over.

[bron]

I looked through the comp 123 postings, and there seems to only be a pitiful handful of artifacts. I can't say that I object exactly (I often play without artifacts at all), but I wonder: just how much rarer are the artifacts in this version? Admittedly, no one has gotten down very deep yet, but the fact that *no one* has even found the Phial yet is a bit weird.

[fizzix]

I looked through the comp 123 postings, and there seems to only be a pitiful handful of artifacts. I can't say that I object exactly (I often play without artifacts at all), but I wonder: just how much rarer are the artifacts in this version? Admittedly, no one has gotten down very deep yet, but the fact that *no one* has even found the Phial yet is a bit weird.

Total artifact allocation is down by about 30-50% between 3.3 and 3.4 along with a similar reduction in ego items. This goes for both standarts and randarts, but randarts are typically rarer than standarts, and can have huge standard deviations based on imbalances in the randart set. I've typically found the phial to be about 4-5x rarer in standarts than randarts, it seems to suffer the most.

Here's a 3.4 playthrough with randarts. No artifacts before dlevel 42, but a lot of that has to do with my playstyle.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=12935

One thing I would like to do is increase the artifact drop chances from uniques, so that they can be a source of early artifacts. It's hard to do that without making the player too powerful.

[Derakon]

Every once in awhile I remember that the Phial used to be a commonplace artifact -- players fully expected to find it by 500', and were justified in that expectation. These days it's bloody rare. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think it's important to realize that at least some artifacts are now far, far rarer than they used to be even before Takkaria took over.

[fizzix]

Every once in awhile I remember that the Phial used to be a commonplace artifact -- players fully expected to find it by 500', and were justified in that expectation. These days it's bloody rare. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think it's important to realize that at least some artifacts are now far, far rarer than they used to be even before Takkaria took over.

Phial is still reasonably common in standarts. Yeah, you won't be finding it on dlevel 3, but there are also light egos like brightness and everburning that didn't exist in the past.

[ewan]

Didn't get to think about artifacts, because the new (to me, anyway) window system made me scream and run. Hitting 'i' and having three windows pop up and cycle through? Yeesh, no thanks. Oh, I *can't* close those windows? wtf?

Not exactly a bug report, but I'll never play this version as is .

[Malak Darkhunter]

Total artifact allocation is down by about 30-50% between 3.3 and 3.4 along with a similar reduction in ego items. This goes for both standarts and randarts, but randarts are typically rarer than standarts, and can have huge standard deviations based on imbalances in the randart set. I've typically found the phial to be about 4-5x rarer in standarts than randarts, it seems to suffer the most.

Here's a 3.4 playthrough with randarts. No artifacts before dlevel 42, but a lot of that has to do with my playstyle.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=12935

One thing I would like to do is increase the artifact drop chances from uniques, so that they can be a source of early artifacts. It's hard to do that without making the player too powerful.

I feel like DL40 before you start reliably finding artifacts to Stingy, By Dl40 you have Vampire Lords, Dreads start showing up, Ancient Dragons, you should be able to start powering up by DL30 to DL40 if you can't then the game becomes extreemly difficult trying to get deeper to find good drops. If you going to tweak that much Item generation, then your going to have to tweak Monster generation to balance out.
I'm not the only person that has noted what a wasteland DL30-40 is in 3.4, I just seem to be the only person really saying anything about it.

Now I feel like you don't necessarily have to have (Artifact) drops dropping, but I feel you really should be finding more (HA) (*SU*) westerness, gondolin ego weapons at that dungeon depth maybe before you start finding the artifacts to help the difficulty procession.

[myshkin]

I feel like DL40 before you start reliably finding artifacts to Stingy, By Dl40 you have Vampire Lords, Dreads start showing up, Ancient Dragons, you should be able to start powering up by DL30 to DL40 if you can't then the game becomes extreemly difficult trying to get deeper to find good drops. If you going to tweak that much Item generation, then your going to have to tweak Monster generation to balance out.
I'm not the only person that has noted what a wasteland DL30-40 is in 3.4, I just seem to be the only person really saying anything about it.

Now I feel like you don't necessarily have to have (Artifact) drops dropping, but I feel you really should be finding more (HA) (*SU*) westerness, gondolin ego weapons at that dungeon depth maybe before you start finding the artifacts to help the difficulty procession.

Here are the competition characters to reach 2000', along with counts of their artifacts found before 2000' and guesses as to the best weapon found before 2000'

• 3 (1150, 1950, 1950) - ???
• 3 (1700, 1700, 1850) - the Tulwar of Earmeth (2d4) (+13,+14) [+12]?
• 5 (1300, 1300, 1600, 1800, 1800) - the Broad Sword of Eleno (2d5) (+14,+19) [+3]
• 0* (first artifact at 2050) - a Spear (Holy Avenger) (1d6) (+11,+6) [+2] <+4>
• 1* (1800) - a Rapier of Extra Attacks (1d6) (+7, +8) <+2>
• 0 (no artifacts found before death at 2050) - a Spear of Slay Evil (1d6) (+9, +9)

* these characters dove fairly quickly, as they reached 2000' in ~160k and ~200k turns

I'm a little confused as to how you're running out of money. What do you buy when you shop? By 1500', at least, I tended to make more money from the dungeon floor and drops than I could spend usefully in the shops. I couldn't kill everything, but groups of orcs and low-level humans would drop lots of gold.

[Malak Darkhunter]

I bought a couple of scrolls of Aquirement that offered very weak ego's, that cost 30,000 was hoping for something better.
Now I went very steadily until DL 25 exploring 50 to 75% of each level, found very weak ego's only, killed most uniques up to that level and their drops where poor as well.
Hoping for better equipment I went on down to DL30-35 very fast, for stat potions and artifacts. Normaly this is where you start finding artifacts, I found 1 only 1*sigh* gain 1 loose 1 stat potion, and maybe about 6 stat pots by DL41, and no good ego's again, tried to explore (Good) levels but way underpowered to hang around for long, ended up exploring WOR by CCW Phase Door, Teleport and that costs money, I constantly ran out of money because I was underpowered for the DL I was on, what I was hoping for to find a good drop on the floor somewhere to increase my survivability, Never happend, I could have survived longer but I grew aggravated with the weak drops, and over difficult enemies for a character who has had horrible luck in 500,000 game turns without even a good strong ego weapon to fight with.

I'm a bit put off by 3.4 I feel it's stingy on item generation, and feels very bland, and desolate. and I don't like the default window configuration on start up it's annoying to change, I don't know how anybody can stand to play in a tiny window.

Some things of note, what I call flavour is this, stuff that makes game interesting that have been removed:

1. Cursed Items: Why remove them? I loved Cloaks of enveloping, boots of stomping, vulnerability etc? These are interesting and dangerous finds, now everybody starts wielding stuff without worrying about it, because cursed items are gone.

2.Wands of Poloymorph- this did not work the first time for in 3.4, these are practically useless nowdays. Disappointing.

3. Shops sell weak items about all are average, their are some ego's but they are weak, I miss seeing cloaks of stealth and protection in the general store, slay brand weapons in weapons shop, resistance armour in the armory.

Part of the struggle is to increase your characters stat's so any change to reduce character stat's on start up i'm not fond of.

I think new players are going to be put off with 3.4 and quickly become aggravated with it, unless they get lucky,and find something in the dungeon to keep them playing.

And consequently I'm a bit offended by people like Timo trying insinuate that I don't know how to play In some way, Dude I started playing this in 1988, and have beat this game about a dozen times before I new there was an angband forum. I just recently had a win with a human rogue, I have played all classes and even beat Sangband 3 times, I know how to play, I just might not enjoy playing your way.

I did have fun playing 3.2 and somewhat less playing 3.3, and that's where I'm at now playing a no-artifact dwarven warrior, the drops where a little better in these versions, so for now that's where I'm staying.

[myshkin]

I bought a couple of scrolls of Aquirement that offered very weak ego's, that cost 30,000 was hoping for something better.

Acquirement has always been something of a crapshoot. At what depth did you read them? When my comp character found one, she dove to 2000' to read it, and got Raal's. I would not expect much at, say, 1000'. That Long Bow of Power (+9, +16) you got at 1250' from Acquirement should have been plenty to kill lots of things through 2000'...55+ damage per arrow is pretty potent for that depth.

I'm a bit put off by 3.4 I feel it's stingy on item generation, and feels very bland, and desolate. and I don't like the default window configuration on start up it's annoying to change, I don't know how anybody can stand to play in a tiny window.

You're using the Windows port, right? I can't really comment on that port, but what do you think the default window configuration should be? The different ports have different defaults, partly because of differing ways of dealing with windows. I'd be curious to know how people feel about the startup defaults. I'd prefer to err on the side of a simpler default startup, to make the game UI friendlier for beginners, but I am certainly open to suggestions.

2.Wands of Poloymorph- this did not work the first time for in 3.4, these are practically useless nowdays. Disappointing.

Could you clarify what you mean by their not working? I IDed one by test, and a monster did polymorph. Monsters rapidly acquire pretty hefty saving throws against polymorph, to be sure, but I'm not aware that this mechanic changed much between 3.3 and now.

Part of the struggle is to increase your characters stat's so any change to reduce character stat's on start up i'm not fond of.

Again, to clarify, are you referring to the couple points of reduction in the points-based character generation scheme?

And consequently I'm a bit offended by people like Timo trying insinuate that I don't know how to play In some way, Dude I started playing this in 1988, and have beat this game about a dozen times before I new there was an angband forum. I just recently had a win with a human rogue, I have played all classes and even beat Sangband 3 times, I know how to play, I just might not enjoy playing your way.

Now I'm really confused. There was no Angband until 1990, and no public release of Angband until 1993.

[Malak Darkhunter]

okay long bow of power is okay, and yes did kill a lot with it, but I would rather have a good melee weapon, and the bow for only ranged combat, so with hordes of orcs constantly on your butt it's not that great.

It all begin with moria in the 1980's I need not explain.

I tried to polymorph monsters at Dl20-30 and it did not work, if it's not a reliable means of helping a combat situtation it's worthless so after about 4 or 5 failed attempts I threw it away.

Why don't you ask JuJuben why he say's he will not go through that kind of grind again in 3.4? Or that the game needs rebalancing, and he will not play a warrior again, I read many comments about the wasteland of a dungeon it now is from DL 1-40.

Having to (start) playing the game after birth process and only then being able to change windows, that have about 4 open along with a small main window is tedious, I like 3.3.2 implentation better, start game-change main font-window, then done.

I just don't like 3.4 and I'm tired of explaining something that should be easy to figure out, a 30-50% reduction in drops is way to drastic a change too quickly, you should start with 10-15% and then see how everybody likes it.

[buzzkill]

I bought a couple of scrolls of Acquirement that offered very weak ego's, that cost 30,000 was hoping for something better.

I would never buy a scroll of acquirement. I can't remember a time when I ever got anything useful from one. I suppose if you had hordes of GP and nothing to spend it on then OK, but later complaining of lack of gold makes this look like a really poor decision.

Now I went very steadily until DL 25 exploring 50 to 75% of each level, found very weak ego's only, killed most uniques up to that level and their drops where poor as well.

This doesn't sound all that unusual. Maybe a little on the unlucky side, but I've played plenty of games like this.

Hoping for better equipment I went on down to DL30-35 very fast, for stat potions and artifacts. Normally this is where you start finding artifacts.

Consider the state of your kit, some might call this a poor choice. But I can feel the frustration in your posts, and perhaps you saw this as a calculated risk, a do or die strategy. You can't then complain because the RNG didn't bend to your whim.

tried to explore (Good) levels but way underpowered to hang around for long, ended up exploring WOR by CCW Phase Door, Teleport and that costs money, I constantly ran out of money because I was underpowered for the DL I was on

So, while already weak for your depth, you chose to explore levels that were more difficult than typical for that given depth. Again, I say poor decision. Gear average for that depth would have sufficed, but you again went 'do or die', and once again the RNG refuted you. Not all that uncommon.

What I was hoping for to find a good drop on the floor somewhere to increase my survivability, Never happened.

Using your experience as an indicator, you should know that "hope" rarely pay off in the dungeon.

I could have survived longer but I grew aggravated with the weak drops, and over difficult enemies for a character who has had horrible luck in 500,000 game turns without even a good strong ego weapon to fight with.

Everyone experiences this. This is part of the game. The undesirable remedy for this is to flood the dungeon with strong ego's in order in insure that all characters can find one.

And consequently I'm a bit offended by people like Timo trying insinuate that I don't know how to play In some way,

Once again, with your knowledge of the game, you should have known that you were engaging in risky diving, and shouldn't be abnormally surprised when thing didn't work out as you had hoped.

If you don't like the current version, don't play it. I don't. When everyone one around you suddenly become crazy, it's usually time to take a good long look in the mirror. I mean no personal offense, but I think that you may be over-reacting to a poor starting character and an abnormally stingy RNG. One game of Angband should not an opinion make.

[Malak Darkhunter]

I would never buy a scroll of acquirement. I can't remember a time when I ever got anything useful from one. I suppose if you had hordes of GP and nothing to spend it on then OK, but later complaining of lack of gold makes this look like a really poor decision.


This doesn't sound all that unusual. Maybe a little on the unlucky side, but I've played plenty of games like this.



Consider the state of your kit, some might call this a poor choice. But I can feel the frustration in your posts, and perhaps you saw this as a calculated risk, a do or die strategy. You can't then complain because the RNG didn't bend to your whim.



So, while already weak for your depth, you chose to explore levels that were more difficult than typical for that given depth. Again, I say poor decision. Gear average for that depth would have sufficed, but you again went 'do or die', and once again the RNG refuted you. Not all that uncommon.



Using your experience as an indicator, you should know that "hope" rarely pay off in the dungeon.


Everyone experiences this. This is part of the game. The undesirable remedy for this is to flood the dungeon with strong ego's in order in insure that all characters can find one.

Once again, with your knowledge of the game, you should have known that you were engaging in risky diving, and shouldn't be abnormally surprised when thing didn't work out as you had hoped.

If you don't like the current version, don't play it. I don't. When everyone one around you suddenly become crazy, it's usually time to take a good long look in the mirror. I mean no personal offense, but I think that you may be over-reacting to a poor starting character and an abnormally stingy RNG. One game of Angband should not an opinion make.

Frustrated-yes, and I don't plan on playing 3.4 without some rebalancing, however I think with a 30-50% reduction in item drops, I'm not overreacting to a stingy Rng, It is a stingy RNG, read competition reports for early game to prove it. Their is simply too much stuff reduced at one time.

Poor descisions?- Could be because of a comp your forced to try for a fast turn-count where normaly you wouldn't care, and don't have the luxrey to repeat safe levels over and over again. But that dosen't change how I feel about this version. I played with 2 runs and it was the same both times, I don't feel like I need to look in the mirror for any self-evaluation, I simply don't like this version and don't see any improvement to the game at all. Enough said.

[PowerWyrm]

The problem with Nick's starting char is the low stats and the "no connected stairs" option. V3.4 isn't hard, the comp char is hard. I've tried and stopped quickly due to boredom of having to scum DL1-2-3 for ages without getting anything of these levels and being unable to go deeper. For more enjoyment, just play with your favorite race/class combo... and point-based generation.

[Magnate]

Frustrated-yes, and I don't plan on playing 3.4 without some rebalancing, however I think with a 30-50% reduction in item drops, I'm not overreacting to a stingy Rng, It is a stingy RNG, read competition reports for early game to prove it. Their is simply too much stuff reduced at one time.

I'm sorry it feels like this to you, but it was inevitable that this would happen. V has been too easy since 3.1.1, peaked at 3.2.0, got a smidgin harder again in 3.3.x but is still too easy, and is harder again in 3.4. I very much doubt that we have overdone the difficulty (Timo thinks it is still easier than 3.0.9, and while he's not omniscient his instinct is likely to be pretty accurate) - but we haven't run any stats yet so we don't have hard evidence of just how much more difficult it is.

It's interesting that the comp character is frustrating people. Nick - my recommendation for the next comp is a 3.0.6 warrior with identical capability (not identical stats, but as near as you can get in terms of hp, blows etc.). Let's see whether that's less frustrating, or more.