Competition 65

[Nick]

Equipment choice question. I'm looking to take out Mim and then begin wandering north of Amon Rudh.

As Pete says, definitely Elvenkind. The other option to consider is using the Gondolin weapon. In any case, =Damage is giving you a fraction of your weapon damage dice, which are not that great with your current weapon. I don't know how you're planning to kill Mim, but with your current gear, I think your best bet is shooting him with the 2d6 arrows. Also, I always fight him hasted, and you don't seem to have a source of speed.

[Pete Mack]

Wear the Elvenkind. AC isn't that important, and you can still swap FA and Deadliness, using your pack instead of home. -30 Fire vulnerability is dangerous, and Mim uses Acid Ball a lot.

[buzzkill]

Equipment choice question. I'm looking to take out Mim and then begin wandering north of Amon Rudh.

I've two good armours.
Hard Studded Leather of Elvenkind [-1] (7,+7) (+3 stealth) which resists acid, elec, fire, frost, and nether. Currently in my pack.
Metal Scale Mail (Dwarven) (-2) [18+16] (provides FA). Currently my primary armour because of the boost in AC and the fact that I can swap out my Ring of FA with a Ring of Deadliness (+9).
Is it worth giving up the resists and stealth for the additional AC and boost in damage? I think so, but I have a tendency to overlook my resists and never ever win.
Current dump here, but I still have to shop for the battle with Mim.

[Magnate]

OK, now I've started thinking about this, and I have a whole new perspective on ranged weapons.

First, why should a sling be good for a rogue? Slings are more of a battlefield type weapon. I would think that a rogue's weapon of choice would be a short bow, or possibly a light crossbow.

S has the hand crossbow - a small, light weapon which fires darts rather than bolts, and has a x2 base multiplier. I'd have thought such a thing would be your ideal rogue weapon.

• [a]Rogues lose their sling bonus.
  [b]Use of a long bow well will require the player to have some combination of being a ranger and having decent strength.
  [c]Slings come in two types, with a x1 or x2 multiplier, and any 'throwing' thing can be thrown with them. Why even use a x1 sling? Because it will get extra range, and can be enchanted up. Care will be needed not to overpower throwing weapons.

Thoughts?

(a) is fine. (c) is pure genius - x2 slings suddenly stay interesting throughout the game, and one starts hoarding potions of detonations.

Please be careful about (b). I agree with the premise (take longbows from the ranged weapon of choice to being a more specialised weapon), but rangers already get extra shots. IMO a warrior should be able to be as good as a ranger with a longbow, simply without the extra shots. Would basing it purely on STR work? (Presumably paladins already have gimped ranged attacks?)

CC

[Cave Man]

Thanks Nick/Psi for the comprehensive responses. I think the way Unlight works needs to be a bit clearer in the docs. Better still, when you wield a light, you could get an in-game message such as "you suddenly feel more exposed". The lack of such a message when you wield an item with the LITE flag would then probably be sufficient to make thing clear.

You wield the Lantern of Gwindor ...more
You feel more exposed ...more
The Innocent Girl shrieks <x3>...more
You are wearing a Black Raincoat [0, +0] (g)

I'm pleased I've stimulated your thoughts on shooters, but can I caution against making changes that are too radical! When archery is reduced to a useful, rather than overpowering "skill", as I believe is now the case in FA, the use of the bow-slot changes completely for most classes after the early game. It becomes a "ring-slot", where resists and stat boosts are the primary features, with the ability to dish out ranged damage (usually) much less important. The only way to clean this up would be to strip shooters of features unrelated to their use as range attack devices, then balance them for utility *as shooters* throughout the game. Classes that are not meant to use shooters could be allowed to equip alternative item types in this slot - perhaps a (single) wand or staff that recharges like a rod when wielded, and is immune to damage.

[Nick]

However, could you have another look at the humble sling. Beyond the early-game, even my rogues would much rather use an Ossiriand or artifact bow / crossbow. Perhaps extra-might slings could get some features analogous to Ossiriand bows? What about Slings of Buckland a la NPP?

OK, now I've started thinking about this, and I have a whole new perspective on ranged weapons.

First, why should a sling be good for a rogue? Slings are more of a battlefield type weapon. I would think that a rogue's weapon of choice would be a short bow, or possibly a light crossbow.

Second, the long bow is a highly specialised weapon - it needed a lot of training and strength to be handled correctly. It should be the weapon of choice for rangers, and usable by warriors and maybe some of the other half-casters, but not the universal ranged solution that it currently is.

So, why would you use a sling when you could use a bow or crossbow? Well, they're cheap and light (so good for the early game); also, you could throw other stuff with them besides shots. You could even use one as a spear-thrower.

So, here's a plan:

• Rogues lose their sling bonus.
• Use of a long bow well will require the player to have some combination of being a ranger and having decent strength.
• Slings come in two types, with a x1 or x2 multiplier, and any 'throwing' thing can be thrown with them. Why even use a x1 sling? Because it will get extra range, and can be enchanted up. Care will be needed not to overpower throwing weapons.

Thoughts?

[Nick]

Psi covered nearly everything, I think.

If you have, say, -30 % fire resistance, does that mean you take 30 % more damage from fire than if it was 0 %, or does it just make it harder to get positive fire resistance (ie. you have zero resistance for all values of 0% and less)?

-30% means you will take 130% of damage. In fact, '% damage taken', ranging from 0% to200%, is really the basic value in the code, and I convert it into resistance because that is easier to think about for the player.

I think the changes introduced in 3.6 are excellent. In particular, I think archery is now about right. However, could you have another look at the humble sling. Beyond the early-game, even my rogues would much rather use an Ossiriand or artifact bow / crossbow. Perhaps extra-might slings could get some features analogous to Ossiriand bows? What about Slings of Buckland a la NPP?

Indeed, fair point. As Psi and Seany suggest, I'll think up some archaic solution...

Congrats on the good work with FA in general, and 3.6 in particular.

I'm enjoying it at the moment - I think it's really showing the benefit of having been worked on by someone who actually reaches the end of the game

[Seany C]

I agree with your thoughts on slings and I freely admit I made the changes based on calculations using bows. Nick will need a first age equivalent of Buckland if this it to become part of the game though!

Better ego-slings and an artifact sling(s) would definitely be good - Slings of Gladden/Hithaeglir/Anduin for the 1st-age ego title?

[Psi]

Nick, some questions / comments wrt FA.

I'll take a first shot at these, as I was responsible for 036.

Does light from items also cancel the "dark" Unlight bonuses? If so, it's almost worthless in the late game - the stealth for a late-game rouge/assassin is irrelevant, and a number of near automatic choice artifacts have the LITE flag (eg. Dor-Lomin, Dwarves, Ringil).

No - the code only checks for an item in the LITE spot. You can have whatever plite items you like however unlight will prevent your light radius exceeding two squares.

If you have, say, -30 % fire resistance, does that mean you take 30 % more damage from fire than if it was 0 %, or does it just make it harder to get positive fire resistance (ie. you have zero resistance for all values of 0% and less)?

I believe you take more damage, but I'll leave Nick to explain the mechanics.

Splinter #2 went down the stairs on dlvl 90 in Angband, and found himself standing next to your version of the bubbles vault. Sadly, Detect_Objects revealed nothing even mildly interesting in the vault. In three of the cells, the "excellent" object was a potion of healing. I think at this depth, !Healing should only be a "good" item, with !*healing* and !Life considered "excellent".

That is my fault. I changed !Healing to automatically qualify as a good object, so that Wyrms could drop them. However for some reason that also means they can be generated in {excellent} vault positions - don't know why.

I think rogues / assassins should be penalized for using heavy weapons. The image of a rogue sneaking around, killing things with a executioners sword just doesn't feel right. I would like to see a big to_hit / critical bonus for weapons less than 5lb, neutral up to (say) 15lbs, and severe to_hit penalties above 15 lbs.

They are penalized to an extent. Each class has a max weapon wright they can use without penalty (which increases with level). Rogues and assassins also get a bonus for using light weapons.

I think the changes introduced in 3.6 are excellent. In particular, I think archery is now about right. However, could you have another look at the humble sling. Beyond the early-game, even my rogues would much rather use an Ossiriand or artifact bow / crossbow. Perhaps extra-might slings could get some features analogous to Ossiriand bows? What about Slings of Buckland a la NPP?

I agree with your thoughts on slings and I freely admit I made the changes based on calculations using bows. Nick will need a first age equivalent of Buckland if this it to become part of the game though!

Thanks for the feedback,
Si

[Pete Mack]

You should be able to use 1 plite object and still get dark bonuses. Unlight gives radius -1; with plite that become radius 0.

[Cave Man]

Nick, some questions / comments wrt FA

Does light from items also cancel the "dark" Unlight bonuses? If so, it's almost worthless in the late game - the stealth for a late-game rouge/assassin is irrelevant, and a number of near automatic choice artifacts have the LITE flag (eg. Dor-Lomin, Dwarves, Ringil).

If you have, say, -30 % fire resistance, does that mean you take 30 % more damage from fire than if it was 0 %, or does it just make it harder to get positive fire resistance (ie. you have zero resistance for all values of 0% and less)?

Splinter #2 went down the stairs on dlvl 90 in Angband, and found himself standing next to your version of the bubbles vault. Sadly, Detect_Objects revealed nothing even mildly interesting in the vault. In three of the cells, the "excellent" object was a potion of healing. I think at this depth, !Healing should only be a "good" item, with !*healing* and !Life considered "excellent".

I think rogues / assassins should be penalized for using heavy weapons. The image of a rogue sneaking around, killing things with a executioners sword just doesn't feel right. I would like to see a big to_hit / critical bonus for weapons less than 5lb, neutral up to (say) 15lbs, and severe to_hit penalties above 15 lbs.

I think the changes introduced in 3.6 are excellent. In particular, I think archery is now about right. However, could you have another look at the humble sling. Beyond the early-game, even my rogues would much rather use an Ossiriand or artifact bow / crossbow. Perhaps extra-might slings could get some features analogous to Ossiriand bows? What about Slings of Buckland a la NPP?

Congrats on the good work with FA in general, and 3.6 in particular.

[Nick]

Nick, isn't there a permanent boost to stealth as well with Unlight? Also, RDark is a freebee.

Correct. You get +3 to stealth, and an extra +3 if you're on a dark grid with no light wielded.

[Donald Jonker]

Heh, that sounds remarkably similar to the Ninja superstealth in Comp 64...

And then there's Ent superstealth in trees, and rogues have the "hit and run" spell (read: kawamiri, or however it's spelled).

[Pete Mack]

Nick, isn't there a permanent boost to stealth as well with Unlight? Also, RDark is a freebee.

[Daniel Fishman]

Heh, that sounds remarkably similar to the Ninja superstealth in Comp 64...