Upon finding a PDSM on DL12...

[Pete Mack]

Indeed. In a game with 77K player turns, you might find Cubragol. You would be exceedingly lucky to find Ringil or Feanor (I have only found each of them once, and certainly never in the same game.)

And you arent going to dual wield Rings of Speed in any case. You will reserve at least one hand for either damage or stats, depending on class and race. No way will you have a buffer of +15 in 3 stats (and 10 in a 4th) to give some up for extra damage or speed.

[Pete Mack]

Followup:
Sky: I am not comparing randarts to artifactless (or egoless) play, ironman or otherwise. I am comparing them to standard artifacts, aka "default vanilla angband." There is *no way* you would get an uber-powerful character in 77K player turns, even with a stat-friendly combination like hobbit ranger. I am running a high-elf rogue right now as a comparison. Yes, he is pretty powerful, but he has essentially no sustains. I am seriously considering taking on Morgoth with an amulet of sustainance. (I am playing on android, v 3.4, so I can't just obliterate M so easily with wands of annihilation.)

[Sky]

Should a randart game in which you do not grind yield an equivalent level of power as a standart game in which you do grind?

No .. it should yeld a statistical equivalent. And they do. Or rather they dont but that is actually a-ok.

Explanation? Explanation.

The standart set is designed by hand. It features some of the most powerful items youll ever see, but these are the rarest, highest power value items. They drop less frequently.

Randarts do not do that, they randomize and as such you will have uneven distribution.

The standart set follows the reasoning "if an object is X powerful, it should have at least Y set of powers".

Thus every arti above so much power has Fa, 4 base resists, and incremental bonuses. They have been artificially balanced.

Randarts otoh might have an object that is economical in power value, and bad on its own, but useful when slotted into a set. So the Helm of Derakon +7 STR +7 Spd ESP is valued LESS by the system than the Helm of Nick +2 STR +2 WIS +1 Light rLight rFire rCold rLightn rAcid Fa pBlind A:bolt useless damage +2 Spd ESP.

The player values items differently ofc. I dont need most of the stuff im "paying" for in rarity due to power value.

Now, 77k is .. low. I would say it's luck and good play style that got him that many artifacts. But the problem isnt that the randart system is unbalanced, it's the STANDART that is unbalanced.

[Thraalbee]

Who needs sustains? Thats what you've got those !life for. 4-5 is usually enough by far unless your dpr is really poor

[Pete Mack]

Thralbee--
Sure. But I am using Elessar now, entirely for its activation. I don't expect to need it vs. M with 40 *heal* potions