Thanks Pete, a lot of people here were around longer then me, so it's nice to get some figures.
Here's the earliest character dump I can find for a low level warrior
He's hacked in the dump so I can't be sure but it shows a low level half-troll warrior with main-gauche & .... 1 blow.
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In 3.0, getting 3 or 4 blows with a dagger, then enchanting it as quickly as possible to (+7,+7) was standard practice. Thancs weren't as good (1/2 the melee bonuses makes for 18 less damage per turn, without a huge stack of enchantment scrolls.) And thancs in the early levels weren't that common.
One other issue: purchased stats didnt get better than 16/16/16. Additional pointa in a melee stat were very expensive.
It's not just a matter of getting a thanc easily now.Leave a comment:
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Derakon helpfully recommends just skipping 500'-1500' but we decide to kill Gorbag & Boldor along. We see some weak branded weapons along the way, they actually look a bit more like they make some sense.
Look the thing is I'm not saying that 1 starting blow is better for the warrior. I'm saying I suspect a lot of this funiness is occuring because a gazillion starting blows was never intended. A game was designed. People started scumming the start. The scumming was automated in. Then a lot of people went off and pretended balance wasn't dramatically changed because "you could just start scum for it anyway". If you look through the design history you see this pattern of scuming being automated into the game to prevent scumming. Shrug. As far as I'm concerned you may as well completely redo blows as they were built for a game using a completely different set of numbers.
Code:[Angband 4.1.2 Character Dump] Name Experiment I Age 16 Self RB CB EB Best Race Crash-Dummy Height 5'8" STR: 17 +0 +3 +0 18/20 Class Warrior Weight 10st 0lb INT: 10 +0 -2 +2 10 Title Swashbuckler Turns used: WIS: 10 +0 -2 +0 8 HP 207/219 Game 131961 DEX: 18 +0 +2 +0 18/20 SP 0/0 Standard 13180 CON: 10 +0 +2 +0 12 Resting 270 Level 18 Armor [24,+51] Saving Throw 37% Cur Exp 3322 Stealth Poor Max Exp 3322 Melee 2d4,+15 Disarm - phys. 55% Adv Exp 3600 To-hit 50,+13 Disarm - magic 39% Blows 1.1/turn Magic Devices 31 Gold 1766 Searching 31% Burden 143.8 lb Shoot to-dam +5 Infravision 0 ft Overweight 0.1 lb To-hit 45,+7 Speed Normal Max Depth 1050' (L21) Shots 1/turn You are the property of the corporation. You have a square shaped head. rAcid:..+.+........ Nexus:............. rElec:........+.... Nethr:............. rFire:+............ Chaos:............. rCold:............. Disen:............. rPois:............. pFear:............. rLite:............. pBlnd:............. rDark:............. pConf:............. Sound:............. pStun:............. Shard:............. HLife:............. Regen:............. Stea.:.......+..... ESP:............. Sear.:............. Invis:............. Infra:............. FrAct:............. Tunn.:............. Feath:...........+. Speed:............. S.Dig:............. Blows:............. ImpHP:............. Shots:............. Fear:............. Might:............. Aggrv:............. Light:............. [Character Equipment] a) the Dagger 'Narthanc' (2d4) (+9,+12) [+10] {@A2 !!} Dropped by Bullroarer the Hobbit at 250 feet (level 5) Branded with fire. Provides resistance to fire. Cannot be harmed by acid. When activated, it creates a fire bolt with damage 9d8. Takes 9 to 16 turns to recharge. Your chance of success is 90.9% Combat info: 1.1 blows/round. With +3 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.3 blows With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.3 blows Average damage/round: 35.6 vs. creatures not resistant to fire, and 23.7 vs. others. b) a Long Bow (x3) (+3,+5) Found lying on the floor at 600 feet (level 12) c) a Ring of Acid [+7] {@A1 !!} Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6) Provides resistance to acid. d) a Ring of Protection [+14] Found lying on the floor at 500 feet (level 10) e) an Amulet of Resist Acid Found lying on the floor of a special room at 1000 feet (level 20) Provides resistance to acid. f) a Lantern (11558 turns) Found lying on the floor at 250 feet (level 5) Cannot be harmed by fire. Radius 2 light. g) Soft Leather Armour [8,+3] Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6) h) a Cloak of Stealth [1,+4] <+2> Found lying on the floor at 450 feet (level 9) +2 stealth. i) a Leather Shield of Resist Lightning [8,+3] Bought from a store Provides resistance to lightning. j) a Metal Cap of Intelligence [3,+5] <+2> Found lying on the floor at 600 feet (level 12) +2 intelligence. Sustains intelligence. l) a Pair of Iron Shod Boots of Slow Descent [4,+3] Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6) Cannot be harmed by fire. Feather Falling. [Character Inventory] a) 5 Flasks of oil b) 2 Potions of Cure Light Wounds {@q1} c) 8 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds {@q2} d) 3 Potions of Cure Critical Wounds {@q3} e) 6 Potions of Neutralize Poison f) 2 Potions of Speed g) 3 Potions of Resist Heat h) a Potion of Resist Poison i) 4 Potions of True Seeing j) 17 Scrolls of Phase Door {@r4} k) 4 Scrolls of Word of Recall l) a Rod of Curing m) a Wand of Stinking Cloud (7 charges) n) 2 Wands of Confuse Monster (11 charges) o) 2 Wands of Light (15 charges) p) a Wand of Wonder (8 charges) Cannot be harmed by lightning. q) a Staff of Cure Light Wounds (7 charges) r) a Staff of Teleportation (4 charges) s) a Jet Ring (+0,-5) <+2> {??} Dropped by a master yeek at 1050 feet (level 21) You do not know the full extent of this item's powers. +2 stealth. t) a Pike of Slay Evil (2d5) (+4,+8) Dropped by Gorbag, the Orc Captain at 1000 feet (level 20) Slays evil creatures. Combat info: 1.0 blow/round. With +5 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would attack a bit faster With +5 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.1 blows With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.1 blows Average damage/round: 24.1 vs. evil creatures, and 17.8 vs. others. [Character Quiver] 0) 39 Rounded Pebbles (1d2) (+0,+0) 1) 40 Iron Shots (1d4) (+0,+0) 2) 15 Iron Shots (1d4) (+0,+0) [Home Inventory] a) 7 Scrolls of Satisfy Hunger b) a Ring of Feather Falling Bought from a store Feather Falling. c) a Scimitar of Slay Dragon (4d2) (+9,+5) Dropped by Bullroarer the Hobbit at 250 feet (level 5) Slays dragons. Combat info: 1.0 blow/round. With +4 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would attack a bit faster With +4 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.1 blows With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.1 blows Average damage/round: 27.5 vs. dragons, and 14.7 vs. others. [Player history] Turn Depth Note 0 0' Began the quest to destroy Morgoth. 247 50' Reached level 2 672 50' Reached level 3 774 300' -- Note: ?deep descent 786 300' Reached level 4 999 300' Reached level 5 1104 300' Reached level 6 1244 300' Killed Fang, Farmer Maggot's Dog 1338 300' Reached level 7 1488 300' Killed Grip, Farmer Maggot's Dog 1735 250' Reached level 8 2025 250' Killed Bullroarer the Hobbit 2025 250' Reached level 9 2027 250' Found the Dagger 'Narthanc' 3397 250' Reached level 10 5379 100' Reached level 11 9701 350' Reached level 12 11052 400' Reached level 13 11243 450' Killed Wormtongue, Agent of Saruman 11767 500' Reached level 14 12184 500' Reached level 15 12784 850' Reached level 16 12951 1000' Reached level 17 13069 1000' Killed Gorbag, the Orc Captain 13069 1000' Reached level 18 13121 1050' Killed Boldor, King of the Yeeks [Options] [User interface] Use the roguelike command keyset : no (rogue_like_commands) Use sound : no (use_sound) Show damage player deals to monsters : no (show_damage) Use old target by default : no (use_old_target) Always pickup items : no (pickup_always) Always pickup items matching inventory : yes (pickup_inven) Show flavors in object descriptions : no (show_flavors) Highlight target with cursor : yes (show_target) Highlight player with cursor between turns : no (highlight_player) Disturb whenever viewable monster moves : yes (disturb_near) Show walls as solid blocks : no (solid_walls) Show walls with shaded background : no (hybrid_walls) Color: Illuminate torchlight in yellow : no (view_yellow_light) Color: Shimmer multi-colored things : no (animate_flicker) Center map continuously : no (center_player) Color: Show unique monsters in purple : no (purple_uniques) Automatically clear '-more-' prompts : no (auto_more) Color: Player color indicates % hit points : yes (hp_changes_color) Allow mouse clicks to move the player : yes (mouse_movement) Notify on object recharge : no (notify_recharge) Show effective speed as multiplier : no (effective_speed) [Birth] Generate a new, random artifact set : no (birth_randarts) Generate connected stairs : yes (birth_connect_stairs) Force player descent (never make up stairs) : no (birth_force_descend) Word of Recall has no effect : no (birth_no_recall) Restrict creation of artifacts : no (birth_no_artifacts) Stack objects on the floor : yes (birth_stacking) Lose artifacts when leaving level : no (birth_lose_arts) Show level feelings : yes (birth_feelings) Increase gold drops but disable selling : yes (birth_no_selling) Start with a kit of useful gear : no (birth_start_kit) Monsters learn from their mistakes : no (birth_ai_learn) Know all runes on birth : no (birth_know_runes) Know all flavors on birth : no (birth_know_flavors) Persistent levels (experimental) : no (birth_levels_persist)Leave a comment:
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Besides a quick look with a dwarf & half-troll warrior. The half-troll is at 2 dagger blows & the dwarf at 1.3. e.g. the half-troll is still preferencing the dagger though the gap is shrunk.Leave a comment:
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So, you made it so that everyone gets ~1 blow/round in the early game? Is that the gist of it?
That could get painful in the 500-1500' range for melee-oriented characters...Leave a comment:
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I almost go to an accident with a floating eye before reading ?deep descent without a ?recall yet. I'm going to walk out. Early balance isn't even close to good. I'm well under powered & having an easy time. Find some good stuff & bullroarer drops Narthanc. It is great but no longer insanely good.
Code:[Angband 4.1.2 Character Dump] Name Experiment I Age 16 Self RB CB EB Best Race Crash-Dummy Height 5'8" STR: 17 +0 +3 +0 18/20 Class Warrior Weight 10st 0lb INT: 10 +0 -2 +0 8 Title Soldier Turns used: WIS: 10 +0 -2 +0 8 HP 52/96 Game 20104 DEX: 18 +0 +2 +0 18/20 SP 0/0 Standard 2035 CON: 10 +0 +2 +0 12 Resting 71 Level 9 Armor [10,+25] Saving Throw 28% Cur Exp 287 Stealth Bad Max Exp 287 Melee 2d4,+15 Disarm - phys. 40% Adv Exp 380 To-hit 36,+13 Disarm - magic 29% Blows 1.1/turn Magic Devices 24 Gold 1507 Searching 40% Burden 98.3 lb Shoot to-dam +0 Infravision 0 ft Overweight -45.6 lb To-hit 31,+4 Speed Normal Max Depth 300' (L6) Shots 0/turn You are the property of the corporation. You have a square shaped head. rAcid:..+.........! Nexus:?............ rElec:?............ Nethr:?............ rFire:?............ Chaos:?............ rCold:?............ Disen:?............ rPois:?............ pFear:?............ rLite:?............ pBlnd:?............ rDark:?............ pConf:?............ Sound:?............ pStun:?............ Shard:?............ HLife:?............ Regen:............. Stea.:............. ESP:?............ Sear.:...+......... Invis:?............ Infra:............. FrAct:?............ Tunn.:............. Feath:............. Speed:............. S.Dig:............. Blows:............. ImpHP:............. Shots:............. Fear:?............ Might:............. Aggrv:............. Light:............. [Character Equipment] a) the Dagger 'Narthanc' (2d4) (+9,+12) [+10] {@A2 !!, ??} Dropped by Bullroarer the Hobbit at 250 feet (level 5) You do not know the full extent of this item's powers. Cannot be harmed by acid. When activated, it creates a fire bolt with damage 9d8. Takes 9 to 16 turns to recharge. Your chance of success is 89.7% Combat info: 1.1 blows/round. With +3 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.3 blows With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.3 blows Average damage/round: 23.7. c) a Ring of Acid [+7] (charging) {@A1 !!} Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6) Provides resistance to acid. d) a Ring of Searching <+4> Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6) +4 searching skill. f) a Wooden Torch (2955 turns) An inheritance from your family Radius 1 light. g) Soft Leather Armour [8,+6] Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6) j) a Hard Leather Cap [2,+0] Found lying on the floor at 300 feet (level 6) [Character Inventory] a) 5 Rations of Food b) 4 Slime Molds c) 2 Flasks of oil d) a Potion of Cure Light Wounds {@q1} e) 3 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds {@q2} f) a Potion of Speed g) 4 Potions of Slowness It can be thrown at creatures with damaging effect. h) 9 Scrolls of Phase Door {@r4} i) a Wand of Wonder (19 charges) Cannot be harmed by lightning. j) a Staff of Cure Light Wounds (9 charges) k) a Ring of Feather Falling Bought from a store Feather Falling. l) 3 Wooden Torches (5000 turns) Radius 1 light. m) a Scimitar of Slay Dragon (4d2) (+9,+5) Dropped by Bullroarer the Hobbit at 250 feet (level 5) Slays dragons. Combat info: 1.0 blow/round. With +4 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would attack a bit faster With +4 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.1 blows With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.1 blows Average damage/round: 27.2 vs. dragons, and 14.6 vs. others. n) a Broad Axe (2d6) (+4,+2) {??} Dropped by Bullroarer the Hobbit at 250 feet (level 5) You do not know the full extent of this item's powers. Combat info: 1.0 blow/round. With +5 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would attack a bit faster With +5 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.1 blows With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.1 blows Average damage/round: 12.5. o) a Morning Star (2d6) (+0,+0) Bought from a store Combat info: 1.0 blow/round. With +4 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would attack a bit faster With +4 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.1 blows With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.1 blows Average damage/round: 10.3. [Character Quiver] 0) 22 Rounded Pebbles (1d2) (+0,+0) [Player history] Turn Depth Note 0 0' Began the quest to destroy Morgoth. 247 50' Reached level 2 672 50' Reached level 3 774 300' -- Note: ?deep descent 786 300' Reached level 4 999 300' Reached level 5 1104 300' Reached level 6 1244 300' Killed Fang, Farmer Maggot's Dog 1338 300' Reached level 7 1488 300' Killed Grip, Farmer Maggot's Dog 1735 250' Reached level 8 2025 250' Killed Bullroarer the Hobbit 2025 250' Reached level 9 2027 250' Found the Dagger 'Narthanc' [Options] [User interface] Use the roguelike command keyset : no (rogue_like_commands) Use sound : no (use_sound) Show damage player deals to monsters : no (show_damage) Use old target by default : no (use_old_target) Always pickup items : no (pickup_always) Always pickup items matching inventory : yes (pickup_inven) Show flavors in object descriptions : no (show_flavors) Highlight target with cursor : yes (show_target) Highlight player with cursor between turns : no (highlight_player) Disturb whenever viewable monster moves : yes (disturb_near) Show walls as solid blocks : no (solid_walls) Show walls with shaded background : no (hybrid_walls) Color: Illuminate torchlight in yellow : no (view_yellow_light) Color: Shimmer multi-colored things : no (animate_flicker) Center map continuously : no (center_player) Color: Show unique monsters in purple : no (purple_uniques) Automatically clear '-more-' prompts : no (auto_more) Color: Player color indicates % hit points : yes (hp_changes_color) Allow mouse clicks to move the player : yes (mouse_movement) Notify on object recharge : no (notify_recharge) Show effective speed as multiplier : no (effective_speed) [Birth] Generate a new, random artifact set : no (birth_randarts) Generate connected stairs : yes (birth_connect_stairs) Force player descent (never make up stairs) : no (birth_force_descend) Word of Recall has no effect : no (birth_no_recall) Restrict creation of artifacts : no (birth_no_artifacts) Stack objects on the floor : yes (birth_stacking) Lose artifacts when leaving level : no (birth_lose_arts) Show level feelings : yes (birth_feelings) Increase gold drops but disable selling : yes (birth_no_selling) Start with a kit of useful gear : no (birth_start_kit) Monsters learn from their mistakes : no (birth_ai_learn) Know all runes on birth : no (birth_know_runes) Know all flavors on birth : no (birth_know_flavors) Persistent levels (experimental) : no (birth_levels_persist)Leave a comment:
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The adventures of Experiment the crash test dummy
Experiment the crash test dummy is using a modified blows table. It's hackish & ugly but good enough to see what happens. All numbers were changed through the adj_str & adj_dex values (e.g. the blows table itself is unchanged). I've given my formally stat optimized character the blows of a standard roller while trying to hold the old max. & minimum stat points.
The adventure starts with crash dummy walking into a store & buying the 2nd best weapon we can afford. It is a morning star doing 10.2 damage & 1 blow. Looking at the whip it's at 1.1 blow & the king of all weapons (the katana) is out of our price range.
Code:[Angband 4.1.2 Character Dump] Name Experiment I Age 16 Self RB CB EB Best Race Crash-Dummy Height 5'8" STR: 17 +0 +3 +0 18/20 Class Warrior Weight 10st 0lb INT: 10 +0 -2 +0 8 Title Rookie Turns used: WIS: 10 +0 -2 +0 8 HP 19/19 Game 170 DEX: 18 +0 +2 +0 18/20 SP 0/0 Standard 16 CON: 10 +0 +2 +0 12 Resting 0 Level 1 Armor [0,+2] Saving Throw 20% Cur Exp 0 Stealth Bad Max Exp 0 Melee 2d6,+3 Disarm - phys. 29% Adv Exp 10 To-hit 24,+4 Disarm - magic 22% Blows 1.0/turn Magic Devices 19 Gold 217 Searching 11% Burden 18.0 lb Shoot to-dam +0 Infravision 0 ft Overweight -125.9 lb To-hit 19,+4 Speed Normal Max Depth Town Shots 0/turn You are the property of the corporation. You have a square shaped head. rAcid:............. Nexus:............. rElec:............. Nethr:............. rFire:............. Chaos:............. rCold:............. Disen:............. rPois:............. pFear:............. rLite:............. pBlnd:............. rDark:............. pConf:............. Sound:............. pStun:............. Shard:............. HLife:............. Regen:............. Stea.:............. ESP:............. Sear.:............. Invis:............. Infra:............. FrAct:............. Tunn.:............. Feath:............. Speed:............. S.Dig:............. Blows:............. ImpHP:............. Shots:............. Fear:............. Might:............. Aggrv:............. Light:............. [Character Equipment] a) a Morning Star (2d6) (+0,+0) Bought from a store Combat info: 1.0 blow/round. With +4 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would attack a bit faster With +4 STR and +1 DEX you would get 1.1 blows With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.1 blows Average damage/round: 10.2. f) a Wooden Torch (5000 turns) An inheritance from your family Radius 1 light. [Character Inventory] a) a Ration of Food [Character Quiver] [Player history] Turn Depth Note 0 0' Began the quest to destroy Morgoth. [Options] [User interface] Use the roguelike command keyset : no (rogue_like_commands) Use sound : no (use_sound) Show damage player deals to monsters : no (show_damage) Use old target by default : no (use_old_target) Always pickup items : no (pickup_always) Always pickup items matching inventory : yes (pickup_inven) Show flavors in object descriptions : no (show_flavors) Highlight target with cursor : yes (show_target) Highlight player with cursor between turns : no (highlight_player) Disturb whenever viewable monster moves : yes (disturb_near) Show walls as solid blocks : no (solid_walls) Show walls with shaded background : no (hybrid_walls) Color: Illuminate torchlight in yellow : no (view_yellow_light) Color: Shimmer multi-colored things : no (animate_flicker) Center map continuously : no (center_player) Color: Show unique monsters in purple : no (purple_uniques) Automatically clear '-more-' prompts : no (auto_more) Color: Player color indicates % hit points : yes (hp_changes_color) Allow mouse clicks to move the player : yes (mouse_movement) Notify on object recharge : no (notify_recharge) Show effective speed as multiplier : no (effective_speed) [Birth] Generate a new, random artifact set : no (birth_randarts) Generate connected stairs : yes (birth_connect_stairs) Force player descent (never make up stairs) : no (birth_force_descend) Word of Recall has no effect : no (birth_no_recall) Restrict creation of artifacts : no (birth_no_artifacts) Stack objects on the floor : yes (birth_stacking) Lose artifacts when leaving level : no (birth_lose_arts) Show level feelings : yes (birth_feelings) Increase gold drops but disable selling : yes (birth_no_selling) Start with a kit of useful gear : no (birth_start_kit) Monsters learn from their mistakes : no (birth_ai_learn) Know all runes on birth : no (birth_know_runes) Know all flavors on birth : no (birth_know_flavors) Persistent levels (experimental) : no (birth_levels_persist)
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