Thoughts on endgame

[Estie]

I'm curious if you have any numbers for how many people play forced-descent vs. "normal". Personally I think it's the best way to play since it means I can't scum indefinitely and thus each level becomes more important. Of course as a non-default option I'd guess it doesn't get much visibility.

I wonder how many of our players aren't even aware of birth options...?

I dont have numbers, but I read the new ladder entries for vanilla almost every day (from the frontpage). Forced descent is very rare indeed from what I see there.

People who are unaware of birth options are probably not candidates for forced descent or other "hard" options.

Another effective and less stringent anti-scum option is disconnected stairs - if only it was less "gamey" a solution...

[molybdenum]

I wonder how many of our players aren't even aware of birth options...?

I seem to recall that they were much more prominent in older versions. I often forget about them when I start a new dynasty, leading me to want to claw my eyes out when I see a level feeling.* On edit to complete my thought: Maybe we could look into ways to change the UI for that first screen to really highlight birth options again?


* I always used to play with level feelings until I saw suggestions of turning them off (probably from Derakon). It helped me immensely with the new style of gameplay, as opposed to the old memorize-every-tile way.

[Therem Harth]

@Nick

I LOVE that idea for *destruction*.

[Nick]

Maybe we could look into ways to change the UI for that first screen to really highlight birth options again?

FAangband has this

Seriously, have a look at the opening screens and see what you think. I don't think it's optimal, but it may be the basis for something that can come into V.

[wobbly]

I tend not to play forced descent because I scum more rather then less with it on. If I've got an infinite number of levels I can dive as fast as I want safe in the knowledge I won't reach a point where I'm stuffed if I lack a critical item. This is particularly critical on a priest with forced descent & no-recall. There's just a depth you don't want to reach without having fixed your detection issue. So you end up clearing levels way to easy for your character just in case. The priest is already a slow enough grind without having to do that.

[molybdenum]

Seriously, have a look at the opening screens and see what you think. I don't think it's optimal, but it may be the basis for something that can come into V.

Yeah, that's so much better; it makes the options discoverable. I don't think it's out of line to add another step to character creation to ensure that new players get a chance to see the options. Perhaps there could even be some presets ("easy", "normal", "hard") with different selections so that people can easily see how the combination of those options might affect the game.

[debo]

FAangband has this

Seriously, have a look at the opening screens and see what you think. I don't think it's optimal, but it may be the basis for something that can come into V.

As long as Storms of Unmagic don't come along for the ride.

[fizzix]

I think the destruction idea is pretty good. What does it do on level 99 when Sauron is still alive. Does it just drop you into a different level 99?

I am loath to do something like make forced descent standard. Part of the original appeal for angband for me was the fact that I could go at my own pace. But I do believe that it might be worthwhile to cut off some of the scummier behaviors.

[Nomad]

Maybe we could look into ways to change the UI for that first screen to really highlight birth options again?

Yeah, even as an experienced player who always plays randarts, I frequently forget to open the birth options when I start a new save file, and birth_no_selling in particular seems to cause a lot of confusion for new/returning players who don't realise it's a game option and can't work out why things aren't selling. I'd be quite happy to see the birth options screen come up automatically as a step in the character creation process - just make it so the default options can be accepted with a single keypress if desired, and it's much more of a convenience than a delay in the process, IMO.

There's also plenty of empty space underneath the options list to have a paragraph explaining the selected option in more detail for new players. And/or you could group or colour code the list as "gameplay options" vs "difficulty/challenge options" to highlight which ones are matters of choice like randarts or selling vs. which ones make the game harder. (Maybe colour code the yes/no as green/red/yellow to show if the current setting makes the game easier, harder, or makes no difference?)

Some of the options could also use flipping around or rewording to make them more immediately comprehensible: there are some hideous double negatives in there like "Don't show level feelings: no" that really ought to be inverted to "Show level feelings: yes" for the sake of clarity.

[Estie]

I dont understand this obsession with destruction. It is neither needed nor particulary advantageous for vault clearing. While the 2 casters can use it with impudence, the scrolls are too rare for much more than emergency use and hybrids can cast it reliably only at very high level and with sufficient casting stat, a requirement normally only met when they are about ready for the endfight anyway.

The procedure described above was to destruct the level outside the vault and then teleport everything out of it, but I fail to see the advantage. I much prefer a clean level than a destructed one to tackle a vault.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I dont understand this obsession with destruction.

Perhaps it does rise to the level of obsession. I tend to save every ?Destruction for the final fight with Morgoth. Depending on the race/class combo, they can be, at least for me, a fundamental part of my strategy to win.

[myshkin]

And if you want me to be honest, I had a lot more fun with this than... any non-savescummed game I've played in a while, actually. It was only at DL99 that things started getting boring. YMMV I guess, though half of it was probably the novelty of actually getting to high levels.

Fun is good! Just be careful about drawing any conclusions about gameplay. Save-scummed diving is going to be quite a bit different from permadeath diving.

Therem, have you read Eddie Grove's Tales of a Bold Rogue? The game has changed quite a bit since then, but I think the posts are still fairly illustrative of how to succeed with an extreme diving playstyle, not to mention unusual tactics. (For example, "at 2650'...I can have rBase if I want.")

[AnonymousHero]

Save the level as the player leaves it, have them return to the same one if they take the stairs again too quickly

Entroband and Hengband do something very similar to this... but it's based on whether you take the same set of stairs. You can actually traverse multiple "known" levels this way if you remember which stairs you took. If you take a different set of stairs you get a new level, but you can still double back and go back to the original stairs.

It works fairly well.

[fizzix]

I dont understand this obsession with destruction. .

Destruction is useful because it removes a dangerous monster from the level. The place to use destruction is when you detect a deadly monster that you can't handle, and that can one-shot you if it gets off an attack.

Also destructed levels are great in case you need to teleport out. Landing in a destruction zone is good for breaking line of sight.

I wonder how things change if destruction makes areas much more open than currently.

[Estie]

Destruction is useful because it removes a dangerous monster from the level. The place to use destruction is when you detect a deadly monster that you can't handle, and that can one-shot you if it gets off an attack.

Also destructed levels are great in case you need to teleport out. Landing in a destruction zone is good for breaking line of sight.

I wonder how things change if destruction makes areas much more open than currently.

What you describe is how destruction should be used, I thought - to get rid of dangerous monster without xp. But how exactly is that conductive to vault looting, as typically the dangerous things are in the vault where you dont want to destruct. If there happens to be some other dangerous creature on the path to the vault, one more tele other isnt a big deal.

As for destructing the outside of a vault just to reduce the risk of getting LOS in case you get ported out - thats silly surely ? While I occasionally get kicked out by the unexpected nexus Q or such, I cant remember a situation where I died instantly from that. No, I have never destructed levels pre vault looting and I dont see any point in starting that habit. The only time when I do that is for the Morgoth fight, and I am saving scrolls for that purpose, not wasting them pointlessly on vault levels.

Destruction is fine as it is, if people feel compelled to waste time destructing vault levels, let them.