Sil is too hard

[Storch]

I'd be interested to hear of specific examples of this, as I'm prepared to change things if it is widely perceived as unfair. Orcs do indeed modify their behaviour based on your health and your status conditions (e.g. fear, blindness, stunning, paralysis, slowness). This seems pretty fair to me though. You change your behaviour based on whether the monsters are afraid, stunned, slow etc.

It is just a feeling, but I think that orcs decided to follow me in to the corridor when I got severely poisoned or blinded even if they could not see that happen - I was behind the corner.

Sil is very different from Angband - mosters are much more cooperative and the situation can get from manageable to deadly very very quickly :-)

[half]

It is just a feeling, but I think that orcs decided to follow me in to the corridor when I got severely poisoned or blinded even if they could not see that happen - I was behind the corner.

Sil is very different from Angband - mosters are much more cooperative and the situation can get from manageable to deadly very very quickly :-)

That may well have happened. You are right that they can directly determine your health state even if you are out of their line of sight, which is a little cheaty (though it is rare that this makes a difference). Often they would remember seeing you slow or poisoned when you escaped around the corner anyway. Perhaps the best solution is to make them treat you as healthy when you are out of sight. I should add that they can also tell if you are in the open around the corner or still in a corridor and they technically shouldn't be able to tell that either. However Angband has this feature too, so this might really not be a criticism of Sil in particular, but of pack-AI.

[will_asher]

I think my biggest problem with the game is this:

I really don't like having a small limited number of turns to spend at each depth. I always feel rushed. If I run away down the stairs, it uses an extra 100 turns so I end up deeper faster when I was already at a depth I couldn't survive.

If I keep finding monsters that can kill me and running away down the stairs, I'll end up deeper when I already can't survive at the depth I'm at. If I keep running away, I'll end up facing Morgoth when I couldn't survive a group of orc archers.
In Sil, stairs are the _only_ escape, so I don't think they should be limited use like this.

The fact that most of the dumps belong to beta testers does explain the ladder.

I can maybe provide more specific tips if you could share, say, a screenshot and a character dump at a point where you think things might go badly (don't leave it until things have gone badly, as that can be too late). From your existing character dumps, I'd suggest that you might find the early game a little easier with slightly higher investment in melee and evasion (and/or Dexterity).

How do I know that it'll go bad before it goes bad?

PS: I always hated pack ai and play with it turned off in V, and in DAJ I tweaked it so that it has less effect.
PPS: Another reason this game seems so hard, it that in most *bands when you get to dL25, you feel like you're doing pretty good. But with only 20 levels, you have to finish a higher percentage of the game in order to feel like you've had a good game, if you know what I mean. That's an advantage of having a 100 level game.
PPPS: Are chests ever worth opening? Both times I found one I just get a bunch of junk weapons and a cloud of poison. (I'm never able to find a trap when searching for it on a chest)
PPPPS: I like how throwing weapons work in Sil (just that they are viable as an alternative to missile weapons is a big improvement over throwing in V).

[half]

If I keep finding monsters that can kill me and running away down the stairs, I'll end up deeper when I already can't survive at the depth I'm at.

Something is definitely going wrong at this point. You shouldn't have to flee as much as that. Do try a high Dex, high melee, high evasion character to get the hang of it. Once you get even a Curved Sword and Leather Armour, you should be able to beat most early creatures. A unique may well be a reason to flee, but they are relatively uncommon. Also, remember that you can go up stairs to earlier levels so long as you haven't used all of your time.


[QUOTE]In Sil, stairs are the _only_ escape, so I don't think they should be limited use like this.[QUOTE]

This is something that is very unlikely to change. I did this to avoid what I (and many others) see as a major design flaw with Angband: the infinite levels, and potential for making the game arbitrarily easy/boring.

The time limits on the other hand are open to possible revision. Personally, I find that I am usually a bit ahead of the minimum depth and rarely get forced down.

PS: I always hated pack ai and play with it turned off in V, and in DAJ I tweaked it so that it has less effect.

You may actually want an item of Wrath (aka "aggravation" in Angband). These make unwary monsters in LOS notice you, and also make alert monsters aggressive so they won't use the 'pack AI'.

PPS: Another reason this game seems so hard, it that in most *bands when you get to dL25, you feel like you're doing pretty good. But with only 20 levels, you have to finish a higher percentage of the game in order to feel like you've had a good game, if you know what I mean. That's an advantage of having a 100 level game.

I certainly feel like I'm doing well in Sil by 500ft (which is half the dungeon length, but maybe 1/3 of the game time of a full game). I aim to make Sil take about 10 hours to complete successfully, and there is no reason one can't feel quite a sense of progress several hours into a game. CF most action games, or puzzle games. The gameplay is deliberately more intense than V to give you more of a feeling of satisfaction in a shorter time.

PPPS: Are chests ever worth opening? Both times I found one I just get a bunch of junk weapons and a cloud of poison. (I'm never able to find a trap when searching for it on a chest)

Yes, they are typically quite good. You get several items in a theme, generated as if they were found on a deeper level. You will get hit by the trap unless you have good perception, but they don't matter that much if there are no creatures around. If it has consumables, they will only be the best items of that type which is particularly useful.

PPPPS: I like how throwing weapons work in Sil (just that they are viable as an alternative to missile weapons is a big improvement over throwing in V).

I'm glad you like it! And sorry that there are so many other things that bother you with the game.

[Scatha]

The fact that most of the dumps belong to beta testers does explain the ladder.

Actually "most" isn't quite right. In particular HallucinationMushroom and Satyr have been doing very well without having played the game before release.

How do I know that it'll go bad before it goes bad?

I'm thinking of things like in your first post, where you said:
"I see monsters that will probably kill me, then start going the other direction and see more monsters."

I should also add that the 100 turns for using the stairs shouldn't be a big thing; it's meant to stop total abuse of the stairs just reloading levels until you get one you like, but using it now and again as an escape should be fine.

[LostTemplar]

I play it as artifactless ironman and it seems ok, even easyer then artifacless ironman in angband.

[Scatha]

I play it as artifactless ironman and it seems ok, even easyer then artifacless ironman in angband.

Interesting. The artefacts aren't actually all that powerful in Sil, perhaps typically just a little bit better than a good standard piece of equipment. To my view the main benefit is that they add interest and variety, so it's possible that you'd have more fun playing with artefacts on as I think the extra challenge here is minimal.

On the other hand playing with only down stairs seems like it will make things quite a lot tougher! I'd guess at least as hard as taking a Sindarin or Dwarf character (the non-Noldor races should in some sense be regarded as challenge modes).

[will_asher]

Something is definitely going wrong at this point. You shouldn't have to flee as much as that. Do try a high Dex, high melee, high evasion character to get the hang of it. Once you get even a Curved Sword and Leather Armour, you should be able to beat most early creatures.

I was exaggerating a bit on how often I use them to flee, but I could see it getting to that point if I survived to run away longer.
I've been using High Dex/melee/evasion characters since you first told me that, and I got slightly further using them than I did before (as you saw in my last Mudpie dump).

[decoy]

I must admit that this thread was my first hint that Sil even exists, but so far I can only say that I love it. Maybe it's because The Silmarillion is one of my favorite books, maybe it's because it seems so much grittier and more deadly than Angband...

It's a tough game and I'm still learning but I just had my most successful character (made it to 800'!) It's probably just as well that he died, he was on his last torch (500 turns) and had been hungry for about three floors and eating herbs of rage to keep rolling.

Also, breath weapons are nasty, as is poison.

It seems to me that the key to Sil is the saying, "discretion is the better part of valor". Which, might I add, if I were invading Morgoth's home turf, would probably be good advice.

Two thumbs up.

(ETA: dump is up! http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=12299)

[decoy]

So after some experimentation and many, many, many, many deaths, I thought I would post again on this thread. I've come to the conclusion that you just end up throwing away a lot of characters in Sil. Skill has something to do with success, perhaps, but plain old dumb luck (usually bad) prematurely ends a lot of characters.

Maybe it's a case of easy come, easy go. The time investment in the thirty or so that I kill off before one lucks out and lives past the beginning is fairly low, so maybe I don't mind so much. Hit a crebain trap and get pounded by thirty blinding, hard-hitting birds? Reroll and off we go again. Surrounded by orcs while desperately running for the stairs? Reroll. Run down by wolves? Reroll. And so on. The beginning kind of sucks, because your character sucks and therefore dies a lot.

I will acknowledge that it is a bit frustrating to lose a character that was going well, but this is not unlike Angband in general.

[Scatha]

So after some experimentation and many, many, many, many deaths, I thought I would post again on this thread. I've come to the conclusion that you just end up throwing away a lot of characters in Sil. Skill has something to do with success, perhaps, but plain old dumb luck (usually bad) prematurely ends a lot of characters.

Maybe it's a case of easy come, easy go. The time investment in the thirty or so that I kill off before one lucks out and lives past the beginning is fairly low, so maybe I don't mind so much. Hit a crebain trap and get pounded by thirty blinding, hard-hitting birds? Reroll and off we go again. Surrounded by orcs while desperately running for the stairs? Reroll. Run down by wolves? Reroll. And so on. The beginning kind of sucks, because your character sucks and therefore dies a lot.

From my experience I think there is a bit of truth in this, but it's not nearly so extreme as you suggest. If I'm playing a combat-oriented Noldor, I think perhaps 80% of my characters reach 500ft, and some of those that die needn't have done. Of course sometimes you do just have bad luck, but I would guess that quite a few of the deaths you mention are avoidable -- but perhaps you're not sufficiently invested in the character at that stage to be careful about avoiding them.

Sometimes I try a character who should have a good mid-to-late game, but hasn't yet got their skills/abilities/equipment together and is a bit weak on combat, and then I admit that I tend to burn through a few more in the early game, but even then it's nothing like thirty-to-one.

[half]

I think part of the issue is that Angband lets you become very powerful compared to your enemies, so you can tend to roll over them in the early game. It is also more forgiving of most early game mistakes through teleportation (it might be less forgiving on balance in the late game). Sil forces you to mostly play at a level where things are tough for you and more thought or care is required to survive. I like that. It would probably be too much for a game of the length of Angband, but Sil is much shorter to play (it has 20% of the levels and I think it requires less than 20% of the time). It is therefore a more focused and intense roguelike -- something that may not be for everyone.

[HallucinationMushroom]

The first major lesson I learned in Sil is that I had to find a survivable balance. Sil provides all these sexy special abilities, and I'm like, ooh I want that. And, oh yes, I need that. And I want that and that and that! You have to be able sustain life with what you choose. For example, an awesome sword you crafted that cost most of your startup experience isn't going to be worth too much if you can't hit anything with it and you constantly get hit by monsters.

I think it's a testament to how finely balanced Sil is that I spent probably 5 hours making characters trying to find a way to game-the-system, and ultimately failed. In regular angband and variants I *always* make what is now called birthscummed characters... min/max characters, whatever. I make a guy who rolls out of the starting gate who eats people whole. You're simply not going to get this feeling here, to mirror what Half just said, though there are some easier builds of course. You will, eventually, get that powerful feeling toward the very end of the game once you've earned it, but even then your optimism must be tempered because you could still get snuffed out kind of quickly if you get cocky.

[Fendell Orcbane]

I think Sil is great and part of the reason that people are finding it hard is that no one has beat it yet. Once we know that victory(and we have a formula for winning like we do for Angband) is possible people will start winning a lot more often and people will be like "Sil is too easy".

[Derakon]

So clearly what needs to happen is, every time someone wins, they get added as a new unique monster and the game is patched so their method of winning no longer works.