Egoless Dwarf Priest Winner

[bron]

A couple of months ago a discussion was kicked off about trying to run Angband not only with no artifacts, but also with no egos (see e.g. http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=3616). I started slogging away at it in my usual slow style, particularly slow because I was actually running 2 characters: both a HighElf Mage, and a Dwarf Priest (the 2 chars that seemed like they might have a chance). PowerDiver naturally zoomed past me and completed a run with a HighElf Mage. I am happy to be able to say I have now finally won my egoless game with the Dwarf Priest (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10647).

I think the thing that makes egoless particularly hard is that basically you have very little margin for error. So you have to stay not only seriously focused, but severely paranoid the entire time. And it takes several times longer than a normal game, so it is easy to slip up and die.

[Timo Pietilä]

A couple of months ago a discussion was kicked off about trying to run Angband not only with no artifacts, but also with no egos (see e.g. http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=3616). I started slogging away at it in my usual slow style, particularly slow because I was actually running 2 characters: both a HighElf Mage, and a Dwarf Priest (the 2 chars that seemed like they might have a chance). PowerDiver naturally zoomed past me and completed a run with a HighElf Mage.

Eddies achievement went one big step further than just egoless, it was ironman egoless.

With shops and CCW/phase door/whatnot freely available it's less impressive, but still impressive. Congrats for winning.

(somehow it feels wrong that ironman egoless is even possible)

[stabbo]

Eddies achievement went one big step further than just egoless, it was ironman egoless.

With shops and CCW/phase door/whatnot freely available it's less impressive, but still impressive. Congrats for winning.

(somehow it feels wrong that ironman egoless is even possible)

I have yet to even get half way to Morgoth with no restrictions. I applaud this achievement.

[bron]

Eddies achievement went one big step further than just egoless, it was ironman egoless.

Not yet. The game he finished (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10718) was not an ironman. The one he is currently working on (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10802) is an ironman. I certainly agree it looks a lot like he's going to be able to bring it on home, but he's not quite there yet. Which sort of pushed me to finish my own game while it was still news, rather than be totally eclipsed by that achievement in the making.

[PowerDiver]

<CLAP> <CLAP> <CLAP>

Come on guys, just pile on the applause!

Also, bron did it with a priest which I'd guess is harder than with a mage, so at this moment he has the record AFAIAC.

[Derakon]

Y'all're nuts, that's all I can say. Nice job.

To quote the original Moria developer:

If anyone managed to win, I immediately found out how, and 'enhanced' the game to make it harder. I once vowed it was 'unbeatable', and a week later a friend of mine beat it! His character, 'Iggy', was placed into the game as 'The Evil Iggy', and immortalized… And of course, I went in and plugged up the trick he used to win…

So, who's for making Vanilla harder?

[camlost]

Y'all're nuts, that's all I can say. Nice job.

To quote the original Moria developer:So, who's for making Vanilla harder?

I think that mode of thinking is outdated. I mean -- mandatory interesting rooms nightmare mode for everyone.

[Atarlost]

If Vanilla is going to be the main entry point for new players it should be casual gamer friendly, and that means a fairly smooth difficulty curve with a relatively gentle slope.

The people winning challenge games need to get their own variant. No game can be challenging for them without being impossible for normal people.

[Magnate]

If Vanilla is going to be the main entry point for new players it should be casual gamer friendly, and that means a fairly smooth difficulty curve with a relatively gentle slope.

The people winning challenge games need to get their own variant. No game can be challenging for them without being impossible for normal people.

And yet, the pendulum has started to swing back after a couple of years of helpful improvements which made the game "easier". One recent fix in the nightlies was to extend MAX_RANGE to 20 to allow targeting with x7 launchers (like Umbar). This has an interesting side effect that monsters can now breathe/cast at you as soon as they can see you/be seen. That should make the middle and late game noticeably more challenging, though nobody's complained yet. We shall see.

[fizzix]

And yet, the pendulum has started to swing back after a couple of years of helpful improvements which made the game "easier". One recent fix in the nightlies was to extend MAX_RANGE to 20 to allow targeting with x7 launchers (like Umbar). This has an interesting side effect that monsters can now breathe/cast at you as soon as they can see you/be seen. That should make the middle and late game noticeably more challenging, though nobody's complained yet. We shall see.

player friendly != hard. For example, this game is hard and user friendly:
Big waste of time...

Most of the significant changes (excepting the quiver, and paralysis changes) have been UI changes. Fail rates on spells/items shown, damage per blow calcs, item locations in the menu, attr_flicker to distinguish dangerous monsters from weaker ones, etc. None of these actually change the gameplay, but they make it more user friendly and in a way easier because you're less likely to make an error in calculation.

The consequence is right now the game is easier than it's been in a while, and mostly because it's become friendlier. There are plenty of ways to make the game harder without making it unfriendly. There are simple ones like giving Sauron Im_Acid. And there are more detailed ones like reducing the effectiveness of ESP/detection.

If the question is 'is the game too easy' I'm not sure looking at bron's (or eddie's) achievements can provide the answer. You wouldn't say Ninja Gaiden for the NES is easy because some guy can speedrun it. The way to answer the question is to see how long it takes a new player to win, and whether they felt it was challenging. If a person can pick up angband and win on his 2nd or 3rd character and are bored with the game, then we have a problem on our hands. I'm pretty sure we're not there yet.

[bron]

a priest which I'd guess is harder than with a mage

It's kinda hard to say. I'm still running my egoless mage (dlvl 75, clvl 42), so I don't have the final word yet, but I'd say that the extra hit points, the reaching 100% save much earlier, and the rBlind, make the priest character slightly more forgiving of (small) mistakes. But I think you have to play the priest slower and more conservatively due to the lack of Resistance and Haste (between levels 40 and 75), the lack of Banish and Greater Recharging (after level 75), and the fact that a priest tends to deal damage at a slower rate than a mage, giving the monsters more chances to do something bad. In particular, I would not want to try and play an egoless priest without using ASC's. On the other hand, I believe that the final fight against Morgoth is easier for the priest (if you have enough high-end consumables): e.g. I didn't have to worry about whether or not reading a [Mass]Banish scroll would drop me below 600 HP. Personally, I'd give the edge to the mage, but think one's own preferences and play-style count for more.

[bron]

As far as making the game harder: I don't really think it is particularly needed. Yes, eddie and I did this, but only after many years of play and experience. And it was really hard. I admit I'd like to see egoless added as an "official" option (e.g. in the birth options, like artifactless is now), but I'm not convinced that the basic game needs to be more difficult. There is plenty of scope for "challenges" as it is. For instance, I have never won in less than 500,000 (game) turns, a challenge that many others have surpassed.

However, if one is intent on making the game harder, my own suggestions would be:

1) No tunneling through granite (quartz, magma, and doors are ok)
This would restrict but not eliminate the effectiveness of ASC's

2) Allow monsters that summon to be able to summon into an empty space that they saw you occupy the previous turn when you are not currently in LOS.
This would reduce the effectiveness of pillar dancing.

3) Use of Runes should be restricted. Either disallow placing a rune adjacent to an existing rune, or go even further and only allow one rune at a time (placing a new rune deletes the previous one).


In my own game, I [ab]used runes, and used ASC's, but did not do pillar dancing or use LOS hacks. One partial exception to the LOS hacks: I allow myself to use "indirect" attacks, i.e. use an area effect attack into a normal visible space, but whose radius of effect will harm some monster that I can't target directly.

Conversely, I think the code that "super charges" a ring of speed should be made slightly more liberal: add one if you are playing without artifacts, and add another one if you are playing egoless.

[Timo Pietilä]

There is plenty of scope for "challenges" as it is. For instance, I have never won in less than 500,000 (game) turns, a challenge that many others have surpassed.

I don't think that is very hard challenge to achieve with borg-like patience. After all 90% of your movements will be just that, movement. If you can cut that down you cut the turncount down. Problem is that I don't have that kind of patience.

I think that with some luck, teleport and regeneration you can cut down priest and mage turncounts very low. Especially priest portal at higher levels is very good tool to pinpoint that escaped unique again.

[Magnate]

player friendly != hard.

And yet ...

The consequence is right now the game is easier than it's been in a while, and mostly because it's become friendlier.

So I think you mean != in the literal (mathematical) sense of identity, not the traditional sense. As you yourself observe, making the game friendlier *has* made it easier - few people would argue against that.

If the question is 'is the game too easy' I'm not sure looking at bron's (or eddie's) achievements can provide the answer. You wouldn't say Ninja Gaiden for the NES is easy because some guy can speedrun it. The way to answer the question is to see how long it takes a new player to win, and whether they felt it was challenging. If a person can pick up angband and win on his 2nd or 3rd character and are bored with the game, then we have a problem on our hands. I'm pretty sure we're not there yet.

Over a year ago a new player came here to Oook and did exactly that: won in less than two months and disappeared, never to be seen again. That was what convinced me that the game really was getting easier.

It may be the case that increasing MAX_RANGE makes the game less friendly rather than simply harder. I'm not sure - I think it is worth playtesting to see. If there are lots of instadeaths, then we'll need to think again.

[Psi]

I don't think that is very hard challenge to achieve with borg-like patience. After all 90% of your movements will be just that, movement. If you can cut that down you cut the turncount down. Problem is that I don't have that kind of patience.

I ran an experiment along those lines, abusing connected stairs, LoS etc for a quick run: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=9787

Obviously a more skilled player would be able to go a lot faster than my 177k win - though whether anyone else would be prepared to be as unethical as I was in that game...