Hit and Run....

[Fendell Orcbane]

So the more I play Angband the more my playing style becomes more "reckless" not reckless in the sense that I do things that are stupid, but reckless in the sense that I just keep diving and hoping that I find good stuff while avoiding thinks that can kill me. Which at this point is everything. So what I'm basically doing is recalling and picking up treasure, killing things like troll pits and other easy to kill groups. I have a rod of treasure detection that I use when I get to a new level and then I go for anything that looks good. Now that I have a staff of destruction I'm going to be vault cracking as well. The only thing that I'm missing are speed items...which my last character had an over load of. This character? No speed what so ever. I'm already at lvl 60 btw.

I'm assuming that this style of play is pretty much that default here, but my question is, did people ever play differently? Was clearing levels ever worth it?

[Derakon]

Clearing levels was certainly worth it back when we didn't have preserve mode. Fail to clear a special level => possibly lose an artifact. Only "possibly" because the special level feeling didn't guarantee an artifact was present, since it could also be triggered by pits.

The powerdiving strategy is relatively new, but to my knowledge there's nothing in the game as it was ten years ago that would have prevented you from successfully powerdiving much like we do now. The big recent changes to balance down in the depths are the utility of C*W potions (which used to be pointless for HP recovery) and the ready availability of object detection. You shouldn't be getting into fights that require healing anyway, and lack of object detection mostly just makes you a bit less efficient.

[PowerDiver]

I'm assuming that this style of play is pretty much that default here, but my question is, did people ever play differently?

I believe that most of the advice here to dive can be traced back to me. When I first started proseletyzing diving, most responders said I was crazy and the rest said my advice was too dangerous for any but the most experienced. The old wisdom was usually of the form to wait for something before you went past the next breakpoint depth.

[fizzix]

I've won games both with clearing levels and with diving. There are advantages to both.

The clearing level advantage (for me) is mainly that it satisfies my OCD complex and I find it fun.
The diving advantage is that it keeps you more wary of your surroundings, and makes you go quicker so that you're less likely to hit a bad break or have a mistyping death.

Since I find making it deep into the dungeon without dying more enjoyable than satisfying the OCD urge to see everything, I tend to dive a lot more often nowadays. (I consider myself an average diver, usually finishing in about 600k turns) I do sometimes level clear, an example of that is my ironman winner who pretty much cleared every level from dlevel 5 or 6 onwards, only bailing with ?DD or ?TL in dire situations. I may try a full level clearer again at some point, it's on my list.

I wouldn't mind playing a version that demands you explore more of the level. I also wouldn't mind if Angband made it so spawned monsters appear with the same distribution as monsters already on the level, and that they started asleep and not aware. That is the major danger of staying on the level too long, more awake and aware monsters at higher average level than when you arrive. Actually clearing a level of all monsters is impossible because of this. If you want to go slow, it's much more advantageous to bounce back and forth between levels than to try to clear a level. My OCD tendencies object strongly to this.

In the past I proposed a small 'reward' for killing something like 90% of the original monsters on the level. Or maybe for killing a random set of 10 monsters. (you don't know which ones are key). The reward could be a small sum of gold on dlevel 1 and the equivalent to reading acquirement on dlevel 50 or higher.

[Pete Mack]

Actually, object detection is easier in 3.0.6 - with the window maximized you detect all objects on your screen. Sure this means carrying staves or scrolls, but the huge increase in detection radius makes up for it. The reduced radius of detection combined with the reusability of rods is about a wash.

The big differences are
!CCW (and even *CLW) is extremely powerful in 3.2.x
Branding rings really improve damage for some uber weapons. (Glaive of Pain, big-dice +attacks weapons)
There are more good artifacts, and some of them are outrageously strong.
(Dragon-slaying bard, +attack + shots Haradrim)

EDIT:
on the other side, there is no benefit to spending turns between 1500' and 2000' gathering stat potions in 3.2.x, because they are much rarer than in 3.0.6.
Instead, it's now much more advantageous to go deeper and try to improve your stats with better equipment.

[Fendell Orcbane]

I believe that most of the advice here to dive can be traced back to me. When I first started proseletyzing diving, most responders said I was crazy and the rest said my advice was too dangerous for any but the most experienced. The old wisdom was usually of the form to wait for something before you went past the next breakpoint depth.

Shit I thought you were crazy too! Hell I still think that diving is crazy...but I find level clearing boring...And you do get levels faster diving so your turn count is a lot smaller. I find that every character I have has lower and lower turn counts. Now I'm hoping I can actually win the damn game this time instead of getting to 4950' or 5000' and dying of stupidity...

[Fendell Orcbane]

I've won games both with clearing levels and with diving. There are advantages to both.

The clearing level advantage (for me) is mainly that it satisfies my OCD complex and I find it fun.
The diving advantage is that it keeps you more wary of your surroundings, and makes you go quicker so that you're less likely to hit a bad break or have a mistyping death.

Since I find making it deep into the dungeon without dying more enjoyable than satisfying the OCD urge to see everything, I tend to dive a lot more often nowadays. (I consider myself an average diver, usually finishing in about 600k turns) I do sometimes level clear, an example of that is my ironman winner who pretty much cleared every level from dlevel 5 or 6 onwards, only bailing with ?DD or ?TL in dire situations. I may try a full level clearer again at some point, it's on my list.

I wouldn't mind playing a version that demands you explore more of the level. I also wouldn't mind if Angband made it so spawned monsters appear with the same distribution as monsters already on the level, and that they started asleep and not aware. That is the major danger of staying on the level too long, more awake and aware monsters at higher average level than when you arrive. Actually clearing a level of all monsters is impossible because of this. If you want to go slow, it's much more advantageous to bounce back and forth between levels than to try to clear a level. My OCD tendencies object strongly to this.

In the past I proposed a small 'reward' for killing something like 90% of the original monsters on the level. Or maybe for killing a random set of 10 monsters. (you don't know which ones are key). The reward could be a small sum of gold on dlevel 1 and the equivalent to reading acquirement on dlevel 50 or higher.

I liked the suggestion that the down stairs be in the middle of a moster pit : )

[Derakon]

That would get tedious fast in the early game. "Maaaaan, another jelly pit I have to fight through to get to the stairs? There goes that replacement armor I just bought..."

ToME 2 has quests you can choose at character generation which occur in dungeon levels and require you to either kill some OOD monsters scattered about the dungeon (in exchange for free skillpoints; not required to complete to continue) or to kill some OOD monsters located in a specific room (in exchange for a free great item; you can pick the type from three selections but don't know the actual item until ID; can't go deeper until finishing it).

Generally speaking the quests do a fairly good job of getting players to stick around on the dungeon, but they can get very tedious sometimes, especially for classes that lack good detection skills. Hunting down that one missing Grape Jelly can be a real pain. And for the second quest type, imagine having to kill 9 Greater Draconic Quylthulgs, arranged in such a layout that they will get several turns in LOS before you can kill them.

Plus of course, guaranteed-great items are often unbalancing in the early game, but generally useless in the late game, while the free skillpoints can be game-changing (giving access to spellcasting to warriors, for example) or pointless.

[fizzix]

Plus of course, guaranteed-great items are often unbalancing in the early game, but generally useless in the late game, while the free skillpoints can be game-changing (giving access to spellcasting to warriors, for example) or pointless.

So the point is less to give a bonus to a player for accomplishing something on the level and more to just give them the satisfaction of having beaten the level. However, since I'm probably the only person in the world who would go out of their way just to see a message, 'congrats, you have beaten level ??' with no item given at all, I figured some small token is necessary.

Yes, granting an exceptional item for level clearing on dlevel 10 will not make the game fun at all.

[PowerDiver]

Shit I thought you were crazy too! Hell I still think that diving is crazy...but I find level clearing boring...And you do get levels faster diving so your turn count is a lot smaller. I find that every character I have has lower and lower turn counts. Now I'm hoping I can actually win the damn game this time instead of getting to 4950' or 5000' and dying of stupidity...

Carelessness is a bigger problem than poison, paralyzation, and stunning put together. If your strategy increases the likelihood of dying to carelessness in order to decrease the other forms of death, it is a mistake IMO. My favorite rgra post ever was this one

"Several of the long time players here mentioned how faster == more fun. I
wasn't really sure if that would be true for me, after all those players
have won this game for years have lot more experience etc... But I can tell
you, this is true for everyone, including newbies, what is my rank for sure! "

[Timo Pietilä]

Branding rings really improve damage for some uber weapons.

This reminds me: how about removing branding rings and chancing Rings of Power to_dam and to_hit bonuses to brands of same type as immunity?

Branding rings could still be useful as double-resistance sources. Maybe we should boost them by some other means too (ball-spell activation isn't that useful, in fact forced to cast a ball spell when I need only resistance is annoying).

[NotMorgoth]

I quite like the quest system in Sangband:



Hmm, wrote a big post describing it, but it was probably too long.

Anyway, what I like about it is that the quests are optional, so you can kill all the monsters if you feel like it or want the reward, can leave the level and fail the quest if you think it is too dangerous, or can just dive right past it if you prefer that style of play.

In other words, a for a diving character, quest monsters and levels are a lot like any other level, you can kill them if you think the risk/reward is worth it, or avoid otherwise. It might be a bit harder to avoid, as there can be a lot of monsters and they are always generated awake.

The main effect of completing quests is the extra experience you get from killing many OOD monsters, which tends to make you overpowered compared to 'normal' in-depth monsters.

[PowerDiver]

This reminds me: how about removing branding rings and chancing Rings of Power to_dam and to_hit bonuses to brands of same type as immunity?.

If that change happens, I would never use two elven rings to fight M. For many chars, it would be a mistake to use even one elven ring vs M. I don't know whether that means the change is good or bad.

[Derakon]

The resistance rings are useless as resistance rings -- double-resisting is merely a pleasant bonus 90% of the time:

* All classes can double-resist fire/cold with potions from Alchemist.
* No class needs double-resistance to acid because of the 50% mitigation from hitting your armor.
* That leaves electricity, which is the rarest basic element*

As it stands, I hardly ever use the branding rings anyway -- only if I have a free ring slot (which generally means I have tons of CON bonuses from other slots, which doesn't happen often) and I have a weapon with big dice. They can make a huge difference in melee, yes, but it's situational enough that I don't think they're broken.

As for making the RoPs have branding, it's an interesting idea but Eddie's point is valid. The fact that the rings act as rings of Slaying in addition to their other abilities is very significant.

* From monster.txt, BR_FIRE shows up 43 times, BR_COLD 24, BR_ACID 19, BR_ELEC 18. Fiery melee blows show up 80 times, acid 41, cold 25, electrical 24.

[Timo Pietilä]

The resistance rings are useless as resistance rings -- double-resisting is merely a pleasant bonus 90% of the time:

That I agree mostly. They could be used as protection ring + elemental resist + temporary resist, but that means they should be rather shallow items, and maybe their AC bonus should be bigger. AC matters at shallow levels quite a bit, and if you could get resistance hole patched with ring that gives +20 to AC it could help quite a bit.

If we just plain replace RoRFire and RoRCold with those and completely remove RoRelec, RoLightning and RoAcid those two could be quite useful and we would have a bit less junk.

RoP against M I hadn't even considered, but Eddie is right, brands don't do anything there.