Randart luck :)

[miyazaki]

I think limiting +shooting speed and +attack speed to pvals of 1 would almost end this debate. Would it be possible to decouple these two mods from the pval on the weapon? Have it always on or off, with a value of 1 if it is on? (I know nothing of programming.) I guess it would force some rebalancing of the standarts, tho'...

[Estie]

Here's something I have been thinking of as far as randarts. As far as I know there is nothing other than the RNG preventing every artifact from having +attack speed as a mod. or you could end up with 14 artifacts with immunity to cold and not one resist poison. The artifact set is large enough that lack of certain resists is not an issue but perhaps there should be caps on certain mods. Not sure if this is feasible with the current code but maybe it would be possible to decrement a value every time a certain mod is added to a randart and when that value reaches zero that mod is no longer available to be added. This would allow some fairly easy customization of artifact sets. Not seeing enough + speed items? increase the number of speed items allowed.

Another possible solution is instead of slapping completely random attributes on a base item and calling it an artifact you could create thematic artifacts. This would involve quite a bit of work but you could create sets of flags that are more likely to be found together, ie weapons with poison brand may be more likely to have poison resist. Each of the powerful mods could have 1-2 lesser mods that are more likely to be found with it. Some things would be pretty easy to group up but others would probably be tricky. What this would do is to fill the budget with some fluff instead of having the chance of getting all the powerful mods on one item.

Capping is boring. Rather, divide the pool of mods into offensive and defensive ones, and give rings and gloves a decent chance to pick from the offensive pool, everything else only a tiny chance. This makes sure that the typical set has *some* (+x,+y), slay or brand or whatever - this was missing in the old randart code - but you will rarely see it on anything else, and while "only the RNG prevents every piece from having +attack speed", the chance for that are so slim it wont matter.
In the same sense, I wouldnt like everything that has ImmFire to also have SustainCha. (*yawn*)
The power pool makes sure that not all 4 immunities spawn on Nimthanc, but for the high end items, a very lucky roll should be able to yield that. If you look at Ringil, I am sure anyone who isnt familiar with the standard set would want to tone it down. But its rare enough to not matter for balancing purposes. I want Ringils to exist, just not always a 4d5 longsword!

[Djabanete]

Re: Dragon armor (non-artifact high-resist-covering armor)

Hengband has Dragon Shields, Dragon Gloves, Dragon Boots, and Dragon Helms, all of which grant random resistances. Sometimes they give only one, often two, and sometimes three or more. They're very useful from a game design perspective, because while they can patch up a resist or two, that's about all they do (that is, they're often useful but not super powerful). I don't think they'd be out of place in Vanilla.

Also, the random resistances lottery makes for fun, suspenseful moments as you hack your way through to a bit of dragon gear in eager anticipation of finding out what its powers will be. VERY (!) rarely, a dragon item will be as valuable as a high-end artifact, so even a well-powered character can have the thrill of anticipation as he identifies one of them.

[PowerDiver]

I was wondering how to deal with the difference in power for slot (a) vs slots (c) through (l). (1) If you use your weapons for damage, you have to assume swaps, so resists are less valuable. (2) For things like pure damage, +25 in a side slot is worth oodles more than a +15 zweihander. I'd say five times as much as an absolute minimum, maybe 10 times, and I could see it going higher.

Damage bonuses on side slots apply to *all* weapons, but a damage bonus on a weapon only applies to itself. OTOH, you could say that that damage of a weapon applies to all all body armors, so I am not sure the previous sentence makes any sense.

A DEX bonus in a side slot such as Vilya is important because it helps provide the ability to get max swings with Deathwreaker. The DEX bonus on a *slay orc* weapon is worthless to most chars.

Maybe I am just confusing myself it and all comes down to rarity issues, but I think some of the issues I see in prices when I sell stuff might be related to this sort of thing.

[Magnate]

Here's something I have been thinking of as far as randarts. As far as I know there is nothing other than the RNG preventing every artifact from having +attack speed as a mod. or you could end up with 14 artifacts with immunity to cold and not one resist poison. The artifact set is large enough that lack of certain resists is not an issue but perhaps there should be caps on certain mods. Not sure if this is feasible with the current code but maybe it would be possible to decrement a value every time a certain mod is added to a randart and when that value reaches zero that mod is no longer available to be added. This would allow some fairly easy customization of artifact sets. Not seeing enough + speed items? increase the number of speed items allowed.

Another possible solution is instead of slapping completely random attributes on a base item and calling it an artifact you could create thematic artifacts. This would involve quite a bit of work but you could create sets of flags that are more likely to be found together, ie weapons with poison brand may be more likely to have poison resist. Each of the powerful mods could have 1-2 lesser mods that are more likely to be found with it. Some things would be pretty easy to group up but others would probably be tricky. What this would do is to fill the budget with some fluff instead of having the chance of getting all the powerful mods on one item.

You read my mind. Not only have I thought of counting and/or limiting mods, but thematic artifacts have been on my agenda for a long time. Any year now.

[Jungle_Boy]

Here's something I have been thinking of as far as randarts. As far as I know there is nothing other than the RNG preventing every artifact from having +attack speed as a mod. or you could end up with 14 artifacts with immunity to cold and not one resist poison. The artifact set is large enough that lack of certain resists is not an issue but perhaps there should be caps on certain mods. Not sure if this is feasible with the current code but maybe it would be possible to decrement a value every time a certain mod is added to a randart and when that value reaches zero that mod is no longer available to be added. This would allow some fairly easy customization of artifact sets. Not seeing enough + speed items? increase the number of speed items allowed.

Another possible solution is instead of slapping completely random attributes on a base item and calling it an artifact you could create thematic artifacts. This would involve quite a bit of work but you could create sets of flags that are more likely to be found together, ie weapons with poison brand may be more likely to have poison resist. Each of the powerful mods could have 1-2 lesser mods that are more likely to be found with it. Some things would be pretty easy to group up but others would probably be tricky. What this would do is to fill the budget with some fluff instead of having the chance of getting all the powerful mods on one item.

[Derakon]

Do you seriously expect to find the One Ring and Bladeturner in every winning game? Sure, they're the ultimate gear for their respective slots, but they're also so rare that I don't really worry about them. Heck, as noted, Bladeturner doesn't actually add all that much over its base item, so just finding PDSM at all will tend to edge out other body armor slots.

Still, I don't think adding more standarts to a randart game is all that great an idea. Especially not Bladeturner, which has no Tolkein significance. I can see the argument for the One Ring -- but then, why do we randomize the elven rings? Or Evenstar, or the Arkenstone...

[Estie]

That works of course, but I dont like it. After all, the point of randomizing (for me) is to not know in advance what to expect; with The One and Bladeturner fixed, that makes 2 of the 4 big slots (weapon, bodyarmour, rings) where I know the end. Id much rather have a broken toon ala Aberly now and then than that.

[Magnate]

Instead of changing Bladeturner, it sounds like artifact rarity should take into account the rarity of the base item.

It already does - but the change from 1-in rarity to the % alloc_prob crates a problem (max rarity is now 100 for a common base item; Bladeturner randarts used to turn up with rarity 255).

No, the solution to this is even simpler: we don't randomise Bladeturner ...

[Derakon]

Instead of changing Bladeturner, it sounds like artifact rarity should take into account the rarity of the base item.

[Estie]

The problem isn't the PDSM, noone ever finds one of those, but the rarity of the "Bladeturner" mod. It is very common compared to other artifacts but that is usually balanced by the rarity of the PDSM. I think the cleanest fix would be changing Bladeturner from

F:HOLD_LIFE | REGEN |
F:RES_ACID | RES_ELEC | RES_FIRE | RES_COLD | RES_POIS | RES_FEAR |
F:RES_LIGHT | RES_DARK | RES_BLIND | RES_CONFU | RES_SOUND |
F:RES_SHARD | RES_NETHR | RES_NEXUS | RES_CHAOS | RES_DISEN |
E:RAGE_BLESS_RESIST:400

to

F:HOLD_LIFE | REGEN | RES_FEAR |
E:RAGE_BLESS_RESIST:400

and read the rest of the resists from the base item


Because that's the stats the real Bladeturner actually adds to the PDSM. A random artifact based on this would be only a little better than its base item, just like Bladeturner

Actually I thought that was the way it is, before I read Magnate´s post in this thread. But the way it´s implemented is correct, if you want the randart set to have the same power as the standarts. If you turn the best artifact into crap for the majority of randart games, the latter will be weaker. Or to put it another way, the standart set guarantees you an artifact based on PDSM; so the randart set should have 1 PDSM on average, which I dont think is the case.

I dont know about the rarity; "Ostolwar" has rarity 5, does that make it more common than Bladeturner ? Maybe, since MoD is a more common base than PDSM.

[Matthias]

The problem isn't the PDSM, noone ever finds one of those, but the rarity of the "Bladeturner" mod. It is very common compared to other artifacts but that is usually balanced by the rarity of the PDSM. I think the cleanest fix would be changing Bladeturner from

F:HOLD_LIFE | REGEN |
F:RES_ACID | RES_ELEC | RES_FIRE | RES_COLD | RES_POIS | RES_FEAR |
F:RES_LIGHT | RES_DARK | RES_BLIND | RES_CONFU | RES_SOUND |
F:RES_SHARD | RES_NETHR | RES_NEXUS | RES_CHAOS | RES_DISEN |
E:RAGE_BLESS_RESIST:400

to

F:HOLD_LIFE | REGEN | RES_FEAR |
E:RAGE_BLESS_RESIST:400

and read the rest of the resists from the base item


Because that's the stats the real Bladeturner actually adds to the PDSM. A random artifact based on this would be only a little better than its base item, just like Bladeturner

[Estie]

About extra attacks on non-weapons, what Eddie said. But theres something else.

The more I think about it, the more I find that the game breaker here is PDSM. Its one insanely powerful base item; compare it to the best weapon-base, MoD (+0,+0). If you find it, you have (almost) covered all your defensive needs with one slot. It makes Bladeturner so good without it having many additionl powers.

Note that my character basically has two items of Bladeturner proportion, in the weapon and the armor, which is impossible with the standart set.

How about removing PDSM completely from the game ? Lets see:
No more Bladeturner; modify Mediator to something useful to be the new bestest armor.
Players who use "no artifact" option get screwed; to unscrew, introduce a new base item, lets say a Dragon Helm, which provides the missing high resists (PDSM minus BalanceDSM; rbase can be covered trivially with shield). Maybe base Dor Lomin on that too, to have an artifact Dragon Helm in the game. Now it takes three slots to get all resistances, but its possible.

This would remove the biggest spike in your randart set, and arguably improve the standart game as well. As I said before, I like spikes, but if "toning down" is wanted, this would hit at the root.

[Derakon]

That's the basic "attempt to enchant an item" effect, which is used by all enchantment in-game: scrolls, *scrolls*, spells, and activations. The only thing the *scrolls* do differently is they try multiple times (I think it's 1d3 or something like that), which means that they can give multiple plusses and are more likely to succeed at all.

[Estie]

Errr, is that for scrolls, for the activation, or for both ?

The description on the ring says "high chance", so I assume its better than some other way of enchanting.