Randart luck :)

[Magnate]

Stealth is available on a lot of different items. Lots of small pluses add up. I fear the adding a ring may make it too easy to accrue superb stealth very early, esp. with a stealthy class. In fact, it may already be too easy.

It isn't. I'm chewing my way through Leisas (comp 88), and only two of them found any +stealth before 2000', and one was a Defender, which kind of limits your melee output.

I'm inclined to agree that a pure stealth ring would have plenty of competition - most ppl would wear +3 stat over +3 stealth I think. The argument that we shouldn't introduce stealth amulets because there aren't enough wearable amulets is ... odd. I'm inclined to introduce lots more mixed-blessing early game amulets ...

I like the potion of stealth idea, though it means coding a new TMD_ effect - there is currently no temporary stealth effect. +10 would make a fabulous difference, but it would only last for 2d20 turns or so - possibly enough to grab that loot from beside that dragon, but possibly not ...

OTOH we have too many potions already, and it's hardly likely to warrant an inv slot for anybody. Ho hum. Useful as a find-and-drink though.

[buzzkill]

Stealth is available on a lot of different items. Lots of small pluses add up. I fear the adding a ring may make it too easy to accrue superb stealth very early, esp. with a stealthy class. In fact, it may already be too easy.

[miyazaki]

Haha. That could make an interesting mixed-benefit ring/amulet. Something that randomly activates (a la teleportation) for aggravation, or light area, or a radius-12 ball dealing 1 damage to creatures. Although then it would be junk.

There was a general consensus on another thread that current "teleportation are useless. Why not add stealth +2 to them?

I think that a pure stealth ring would have enough competition to not be over-powering. Which would you choose: =damage, =rpois, =FA, =stealth, =CON, =SI?

[Tiburon Silverflame]

High stealth is definitely very valuable in the early to mid-game. Whether you need it later, depends on what you've got. And as was pointed out, an amulet of stealth would be significantly better than any other choice one usually can find, for some time. The ring...I like my rings of protection early. +18 to +20 AC is quite useful through DL 25ish, and by that point there's a pretty good chance you'll find a stat booster you like, or maybe a ring of damage or slaying, that helps more.

So if balance is a concern: go with a ring. The amulet's too much of a no-brainer, unless it shows up too deep and you'd actually rarely use it; the ring gives choice.

[nullfame]

... followed immediately by aggravation .

Haha. That could make an interesting mixed-benefit ring/amulet. Something that randomly activates (a la teleportation) for aggravation, or light area, or a radius-12 ball dealing 1 damage to creatures. Although then it would be junk.

[buzzkill]

What about scrolls/potions increasing stealth temporarily? Maybe even to perfect level?

... followed immediately by aggravation .

[Ycombinator]

While we're on the subject, any interest in Rings of Stealth or Amulets of Stealth? I could see them being useful in the mid-early game, when good rings and amulets are in short supply.

What about scrolls/potions increasing stealth temporarily? Maybe even to perfect level?

[Magnate]

Because it would. Optimizing for stealth playing rogue/ranger changed my life. I once came down a staircase landing in a room with Moria and escort blocking an unidentified potion. I teleported a row of them (including Moria) and walked through the sea of balrogs to id the potion. I felt like a badass.

If a ring/amulet of stealth is sufficiently deep that it competes with other native items that seems fine. My guess is 50 for both. Can you make certain types of items more rare than others?

Another idea would be a ring of the mouse type situation where it had a drawback. Ring of the fox? Snake? (-4, -4)?

A related question: for sleeping monsters moving at normal speed, is +1 stealth = +10 speed? You are making half as much noise so it takes them twice as long to notice you.

Optimising for stealth changed angband for me too. But no, the noise you make is random, so there isn't a clear relationship between stealth and speed, since the latter isn't random. I like your idea of a mixed blessing item with +stealth and minus something else - then pure +stealth jewelry could be significantly deeper and rarer. I think I will consider this as part of ticket 716, which is about re-examining the mixed blessing items altogether (apart from Escaping they are very little used). Watch this space (though probably not until the current comp finishes!).

[nullfame]

Stand by for Eddie and Pete griping about how this will make the game easier still ...

Because it would. Optimizing for stealth playing rogue/ranger changed my life. I once came down a staircase landing in a room with Moria and escort blocking an unidentified potion. I teleported a row of them (including Moria) and walked through the sea of balrogs to id the potion. I felt like a badass.

If a ring/amulet of stealth is sufficiently deep that it competes with other native items that seems fine. My guess is 50 for both. Can you make certain types of items more rare than others?

Another idea would be a ring of the mouse type situation where it had a drawback. Ring of the fox? Snake? (-4, -4)?

A related question: for sleeping monsters moving at normal speed, is +1 stealth = +10 speed? You are making half as much noise so it takes them twice as long to notice you.

[Magnate]

While we're on the subject, any interest in Rings of Stealth or Amulets of Stealth? I could see them being useful in the mid-early game, when good rings and amulets are in short supply.

I would go crazy for introducing those. Wouldn't be difficult either - I'll ask Takk what he thinks.

Stand by for Eddie and Pete griping about how this will make the game easier still ...

[Derakon]

It's possible to get perfect stealth, and with randarts this is more achievable. Perfect or near-perfect stealth (high 20s) is really stupendously useful, because so few monsters wake up that it doesn't matter that they know where you are.

While we're on the subject, any interest in Rings of Stealth or Amulets of Stealth? I could see them being useful in the mid-early game, when good rings and amulets are in short supply.

[Magnate]

Actually they are not. They are, if your other gear is utter crap, but if you have found other Rings of Power, aggravation in The One is major drawback, and Bladeturner is heavy (50 lbs) with -8 to hit with almost nothing extra compared to ordinary PDSM and with worse activation.

I have found both and two cases of three I didn't use The One and the only case I found Bladeturner I didn't use it. I had no need for anything it had.

If something Bladeturner needs boost. For randarts I don't care if it gets overvalued as long as the item created based on it is rare.

This is a serious problem with the change from rarity to alloc_prob, as the latter has a maximum rarity of 1-in-100 (1%). Previously rarity could go as high as 1-in-255. I am hoping to persuade Takk to make alloc_prob more granular (like 1/1000 instead of 1/100), but that will break savefiles again (will need an extra byte).

[Magnate]

Thing with tunneling is that high values have, well, high value, but with low values they don't have a value at all. Tunneling through GCV so fast that monsters inside don't have time to wake up is valuable.

True, but that's about the value of tunnelling per se, not about its importance in combination with other pval stuff.

Why is stealth valued higher than spellcasting stats? I would understand high stealth value if already awake monsters would not automatically know where you are but because they do stealth value isn't that big. More like 0.5 than 1.

It's possible to get perfect stealth, and with randarts this is more achievable. Perfect or near-perfect stealth (high 20s) is really stupendously useful, because so few monsters wake up that it doesn't matter that they know where you are.

In fact this is possible without any randarts at all:

+4 from Defender
+3 from armour of Elvenkind
+5 from Elven cloak of Aman/Stealth
+3 from shield of Elvenkind
+3 from boots of Stealth/Elvenkind

That's +18, which gives a hobbit or kobold rogue 28 stealth, which is 2 off perfect IIRC.

[Timo Pietilä]

The actual values are:

STR, DEX, CON, stealth: 1
INT, WIS: 0.75
CHR, infravision, tunnelling, searching: 0

I think it's probably worth putting tunnelling to 0.25 or thereabouts, based on Derakon's logic.

Thing with tunneling is that high values have, well, high value, but with low values they don't have a value at all. Tunneling through GCV so fast that monsters inside don't have time to wake up is valuable.

Why is stealth valued higher than spellcasting stats? I would understand high stealth value if already awake monsters would not automatically know where you are but because they do stealth value isn't that big. More like 0.5 than 1.

It would be completely different situation if you could sneak past awake monsters that do not have LoS to you with high stealth. Then I would rate stealth very high indeed.

[Timo Pietilä]

Do you seriously expect to find the One Ring and Bladeturner in every winning game? Sure, they're the ultimate gear for their respective slots,

Actually they are not. They are, if your other gear is utter crap, but if you have found other Rings of Power, aggravation in The One is major drawback, and Bladeturner is heavy (50 lbs) with -8 to hit with almost nothing extra compared to ordinary PDSM and with worse activation.

I have found both and two cases of three I didn't use The One and the only case I found Bladeturner I didn't use it. I had no need for anything it had.

If something Bladeturner needs boost. For randarts I don't care if it gets overvalued as long as the item created based on it is rare.