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Well, after going 2/2 on mages, I've lost my perfect batting average on 4.2.5. -
Ben II the Dunadan ranger died CL11 at 750 feet to an ochre jelly (in first or second dive... I take risks)... No dump on this quick abort.
Bboxman II the Hobbit Rogue died to Morgoth... Got Morgoth down to like around three-four bars in a really really slow going with a bow and annihilation wands... I was running low on consumables - banishment (mass and normal) spent, low level healing, and I though teleporting away (and then *destructing*) was maybe a good idea (after I previously used *destruction* with Morgoth in the zone in a previous attempt on the level - losing a bit of consumables)... Teleported right into a room full of stuff (which I probably teleported away?), and while I had 600 HPs or so, I was immediately clobbered by multiple breaths without being able to take a turn - and bam - dead:
The rogue run was awash with gear... I kept on stair scumming for whatever I wanted (though I had bad luck with slings and sling ammo, which I probably should've prioritized over the great bow and ammo I found)... Stat gain was quick (though the limited HP pool of Hobbit-Rogue was a bit meh). Made very liberal use of "teleport away" to raid various vaults (ones without too much LOS....) However, the various healing potions were a drag since taking down the uniques (took almost all down prior to Morgoth - except I think smeagol) really ate up potions - I spent like 1-2 hours stair-scumming (+ object detect) for potions prior to Morgoth.
Ben III I the Dunadan ranger just finished Morgoth tonight, and with much higher damage output per turn... and some misdirection with "decoy" - it was a breeze:
I'm running a Dwarf Paladin next (already CL30), and probably a priest.
So why am I saying these are incomplete classes? Because they really lack progression in abilities after CL30-CL35 or so and the second dungeon book at around 2000 feet. Both of these end up having large mana pools... And very little to spending it on. Many of the spells only really save inventory slots, and even that not efficiently - e.g. the rogue's "Teleport Level" saves a scroll slot supposedly (the capstone ability at CL35) - but this is an emergency escape spell which you're pulling off when you don't have a turn to risk... And the 5% failure rate on it... Pretty much has you keeping a scroll slot. Stealing and "hit and run" didn't do much for me. "Teleport self" and "teleport level" are really just inventory slots - and with 5% fail... Aren't even that... So the entire four spells in the second book end really end up being "teleport other" at level 30 (and bit beyond while you get more mana / better fail) - which is great to spam.... But it basically that's it for rogue.
The basic book progression is great. Depths 2000-3000 between the 2nd book and the 3rd could be OK... But leaving the class there sucks. I would expect to see on rogue a bit more stealth spells/abilities, maybe a "first attack" ability, and debuffs to enemies - in a 3rd spellbook. If a Paladin buffs himself, couldn't a rogue debuff enemies (tripping them, blinding them, poisoning them, etc.) as a defining trickery feature? Maybe also some controlled movement (e.g. a controlled blink / dart away, or making monsters slip on something a few squares).
Rogues should also get some sort of buff to ranged combat - if melee was nerfed and they are squishy - they should get some extra shots on ranged - or alternatively throwing weapons should be feasible (inventory stacking of knives/shurikens ?). Rogues are supposedly best at throwing objects - but this seems mostly useless (and inventory slot hogging) from the mid to late game.
Ranger progression is a bit better in that the 2nd book has a few more actually useful spells, but it also really becomes a "flat" class after CL30-35 / depth 2000 - where progression comes from HP gain and linear skills - but no abilities. "cover tracks" was somewhat useful. "Create arrows" makes arrow scumming easier which is great - though it also really locks rangers into bow as you can't scum bolts or shots. "Haste self" obviously is useful, but mainly saves an inventory slot (at least compared to a rogue recharging staves). "Decoy" is nice, though the limit to a single decoy - or more precisely being blocked from resetting the decoy with a new one - is really a pain if the monster ignored/bypassed the first one you planted - in many situations I was limited from using this because I already had one setup - which for some reason you can't remove yourself (or I didn't figure out how). "Brand ammunition" is a nice little boost at level 40 - but really when you get it the fire/cold/poison trio is mostly resisted by all of the harder monsters - so this ends up being 2nd tier ammo - not really useful in a high end fight.
Rangers maybe could a shapeshift? Some movement spell other than haste? Stealth? Something with arrows?
Compared to what I'm seeing now with Paladin - where mana is used throughout play and is useful (and not as utility / detect / ammo preparation) - there really is something lacking here.
The second beef I have here is ranged launchers - with two main comments:
1. Launcher artifacts are junk for anyone using a launcher as a launcher for damage. All of of them with the exception of the Heavy Crossbow of Umbar are junk as launchers compared to the ego weapons (which themselves are rather boring and templated - one per type of launcher). And obviously Umbar with aggravate is junk for stealthy classes... Heavy as a swap... And pretty useless for rangers who are pre-disposed to arrows since they can't create bolts for some odd reason (There should be a "create bolts" next to "create arrows"). The artifact launchers end up being stat sticks (and some are great stat sticks) for characters who don't use bows.
2. Firing arrows (and then picking them up) is tedious compared to the faster melee combat. In melee combat you are getting off 5-8 blows in a single key stroke (in "one round") - while with multishots on arrows - you need to click (and read for moster response) each single arrow.
Ben II the Dunadan ranger died CL11 at 750 feet to an ochre jelly (in first or second dive... I take risks)... No dump on this quick abort.
Bboxman II the Hobbit Rogue died to Morgoth... Got Morgoth down to like around three-four bars in a really really slow going with a bow and annihilation wands... I was running low on consumables - banishment (mass and normal) spent, low level healing, and I though teleporting away (and then *destructing*) was maybe a good idea (after I previously used *destruction* with Morgoth in the zone in a previous attempt on the level - losing a bit of consumables)... Teleported right into a room full of stuff (which I probably teleported away?), and while I had 600 HPs or so, I was immediately clobbered by multiple breaths without being able to take a turn - and bam - dead:
The rogue run was awash with gear... I kept on stair scumming for whatever I wanted (though I had bad luck with slings and sling ammo, which I probably should've prioritized over the great bow and ammo I found)... Stat gain was quick (though the limited HP pool of Hobbit-Rogue was a bit meh). Made very liberal use of "teleport away" to raid various vaults (ones without too much LOS....) However, the various healing potions were a drag since taking down the uniques (took almost all down prior to Morgoth - except I think smeagol) really ate up potions - I spent like 1-2 hours stair-scumming (+ object detect) for potions prior to Morgoth.
Ben III I the Dunadan ranger just finished Morgoth tonight, and with much higher damage output per turn... and some misdirection with "decoy" - it was a breeze:
I'm running a Dwarf Paladin next (already CL30), and probably a priest.
So why am I saying these are incomplete classes? Because they really lack progression in abilities after CL30-CL35 or so and the second dungeon book at around 2000 feet. Both of these end up having large mana pools... And very little to spending it on. Many of the spells only really save inventory slots, and even that not efficiently - e.g. the rogue's "Teleport Level" saves a scroll slot supposedly (the capstone ability at CL35) - but this is an emergency escape spell which you're pulling off when you don't have a turn to risk... And the 5% failure rate on it... Pretty much has you keeping a scroll slot. Stealing and "hit and run" didn't do much for me. "Teleport self" and "teleport level" are really just inventory slots - and with 5% fail... Aren't even that... So the entire four spells in the second book end really end up being "teleport other" at level 30 (and bit beyond while you get more mana / better fail) - which is great to spam.... But it basically that's it for rogue.
The basic book progression is great. Depths 2000-3000 between the 2nd book and the 3rd could be OK... But leaving the class there sucks. I would expect to see on rogue a bit more stealth spells/abilities, maybe a "first attack" ability, and debuffs to enemies - in a 3rd spellbook. If a Paladin buffs himself, couldn't a rogue debuff enemies (tripping them, blinding them, poisoning them, etc.) as a defining trickery feature? Maybe also some controlled movement (e.g. a controlled blink / dart away, or making monsters slip on something a few squares).
Rogues should also get some sort of buff to ranged combat - if melee was nerfed and they are squishy - they should get some extra shots on ranged - or alternatively throwing weapons should be feasible (inventory stacking of knives/shurikens ?). Rogues are supposedly best at throwing objects - but this seems mostly useless (and inventory slot hogging) from the mid to late game.
Ranger progression is a bit better in that the 2nd book has a few more actually useful spells, but it also really becomes a "flat" class after CL30-35 / depth 2000 - where progression comes from HP gain and linear skills - but no abilities. "cover tracks" was somewhat useful. "Create arrows" makes arrow scumming easier which is great - though it also really locks rangers into bow as you can't scum bolts or shots. "Haste self" obviously is useful, but mainly saves an inventory slot (at least compared to a rogue recharging staves). "Decoy" is nice, though the limit to a single decoy - or more precisely being blocked from resetting the decoy with a new one - is really a pain if the monster ignored/bypassed the first one you planted - in many situations I was limited from using this because I already had one setup - which for some reason you can't remove yourself (or I didn't figure out how). "Brand ammunition" is a nice little boost at level 40 - but really when you get it the fire/cold/poison trio is mostly resisted by all of the harder monsters - so this ends up being 2nd tier ammo - not really useful in a high end fight.
Rangers maybe could a shapeshift? Some movement spell other than haste? Stealth? Something with arrows?
Compared to what I'm seeing now with Paladin - where mana is used throughout play and is useful (and not as utility / detect / ammo preparation) - there really is something lacking here.
The second beef I have here is ranged launchers - with two main comments:
1. Launcher artifacts are junk for anyone using a launcher as a launcher for damage. All of of them with the exception of the Heavy Crossbow of Umbar are junk as launchers compared to the ego weapons (which themselves are rather boring and templated - one per type of launcher). And obviously Umbar with aggravate is junk for stealthy classes... Heavy as a swap... And pretty useless for rangers who are pre-disposed to arrows since they can't create bolts for some odd reason (There should be a "create bolts" next to "create arrows"). The artifact launchers end up being stat sticks (and some are great stat sticks) for characters who don't use bows.
2. Firing arrows (and then picking them up) is tedious compared to the faster melee combat. In melee combat you are getting off 5-8 blows in a single key stroke (in "one round") - while with multishots on arrows - you need to click (and read for moster response) each single arrow.