autoscum bites me in the foot

[will_asher]

I'd been playing awhile without autoscum levels on, but I turned it on for this game because on the earlier game it seemed to take me forever to get ego weapons and stuff and the only artifact I found those several games was the phial. The first time I go to dungeon level 3 I get a "you like the looks of this level" feeling. I had already found a summon monster scroll, and I figure any other scroll normally found an the first few level are safe to read to find out what they are. I read a scroll from that level and it turned out to be curse weapon. So I had my -5 -5 shattered broadsword stuck to my hand until a remove curse scroll appeared in the temple.

And that's how I learn that auto-scum isn't always good. ..but I still like it better than without it.

[Daven_26d1]

I've almost exclusively played V with autosummer off in the past; I think I took that "many players consider this option cheating" line in the online help to heart!

However, something I've found with 3.0.8 & 3.0.9 (last version I played before that was 3.0.3) is that, like yourself, I simply find absolutely nothing at all until quite startling depths. My first run on 3.0.8 gave me no level above "boring place" until somewhere around 800 feet, when I finally got a floor that mightn't have been all bad...

I seem to recall Takkaria saying something about not having changed anything in dungeon generation, but I don't know whether this related to the maps only or the whole of level generation.

[takkaria]

I seem to recall Takkaria saying something about not having changed anything in dungeon generation, but I don't know whether this related to the maps only or the whole of level generation.

It's possible the dungeon_align option being removed has some effect. That's really the only thing it could be. Either that, or the RNGs are collectively unionising against players at the moment. I don't know which is more likely.

[Daven_26d1]

I've never played with aligned rooms, except for my very first game or two, playing 2.x.y on Win. So its not that.

Probably I just used to be luckier.

[will_asher]

Personally, I don't consider autoscum cheating. If I wasn't using autoscum, I'd want to spend only enough turns on a level to get a level feeling for the next level, but sometimes I get a little carried away with exploring even when it's basically pointless to explore that level. AFAIC (wow, I just realized what that acronym means), if you can do something without the option to have pretty much the same effect (scum for better levels), then it can't be cheating.

[takkaria]

Personally, I don't consider autoscum cheating. If I wasn't using autoscum, I'd want to spend only enough turns on a level to get a level feeling for the next level, but sometimes I get a little carried away with exploring even when it's basically pointless to explore that level. AFAIC (wow, I just realized what that acronym means), if you can do something without the option to have pretty much the same effect (scum for better levels), then it can't be cheating.

Next version and autoscum's gone (so this is fair warning!). I'm thinking of removing level feelings most of the time too, and only giving them when something truly exceptional is on the level, or perhaps just for artifacts. Something like that.

[Daven_26d1]

Personally, I don't consider autoscum cheating...
...if you can do something without the option to have pretty much the same effect (scum for better levels), then it can't be cheating.

But scumming manually costs you food, and light, and IC / RL time... by your logic autoscum *is* cheating, surely...

I don't think autoscum is massively cheating anymore, but it certainly produces a different game. In fact, although autoscum is mostly advantageous, it can mean death for divers, or near the end of the dungeon (when you basically want a clear path to Sauron & Morgoth).

What *is* cheating in my book is turning it off and on as you feel like it, up to and including just before you post to the ladder! That's why I like the option fixed at birth, as it is now - you either play "autoscum angband" or you don't.

[will_asher]

But scumming manually costs you food, and light, and IC / RL time... by your logic autoscum *is* cheating, surely...

food and light are about the cheapest things in the game, and spending a lot of time finding nothing whatsoever of value just stinks. Having an option that reduces annoyance and boredom in the game is good.

What *is* cheating in my book is turning it off and on as you feel like it, up to and including just before you post to the ladder! That's why I like the option fixed at birth, as it is now - you either play "autoscum angband" or you don't.

That makes sense. It's fine with me to have it as a birth option, but if the option dissapears I'll greatly miss it. Without autoscum or level feelings, I'll feel like I have to explore every level to find out if there's something worthwhile on it. And if there isn't anything worthwhile most of the time (which will be the case unless the rarity of good items is changed), it'll make the game more frustrating and less fun.

[Bandobras]

I bet takkaria is going to make autoscum the default and only cover it with weasel words about rebalancing and new better V.

BTW, I like it.

[takkaria]

That makes sense. It's fine with me to have it as a birth option, but if the option dissapears I'll greatly miss it. Without autoscum or level feelings, I'll feel like I have to explore every level to find out if there's something worthwhile on it. And if there isn't anything worthwhile most of the time (which will be the case unless the rarity of good items is changed), it'll make the game more frustrating and less fun.

If it disappears, it's because the game is to be balanced so that it's unnecessary (at least in theory). Autoscum is like squelch: it covers up a problem by adding optional behaviour to work around the problem, rather than by fixing the problem.

Scumming is encouraged by level feelings (which aren't particularly accurate) and also because the dungeon isn't all that interesting a fair bit of the time. The solution is to remove autoscum and make the dungeon more interesting more of the time. There's a balance to be had here, though -- current development versions of V are a bit too "interesting". Smaller levels help, too, and mean that exploring a whole dungeon level is generally less of a chore. (Current dungeons are too big.)

EDIT: er, it's late night, I'm tired and can't get to sleep -- please don't take the above as being right!

[zaimoni]

Internally (actually roleplaying the @ a bit), autoscum and squelch are in different categories.

Squelch is basically a subconscious retuning. It conveniently explains why there's TMJ -- all of your predecessors also squelched the less-than-interesting stuff. [Flip-side: should you suddenly have a food problem, unsquelching it should bring the food back onto the screen].

Autoscum...indeed should be fixed by being rebalanced into redundancy. It's a game reality alteration, not a mental model alteration.

[tigen]

I think it's the right thing to do. I've also been thinking that stat-rolling should go. How on earth is rolling for stats fun or meaningful in the context of this game? The autoroller is ridiculous. Actually I think the whole 18/XXX system should go too while I'm on the subject, in favor of a flat scale (with 10 internal points for every stat, not just the ones between 18/00-100) and maximize mode removed in favor of a compromise (instead of a constant bonus, the caps are modified). But never mind that...

What do you guys think about the connected stairs option? (birth_no_stairs) I was thinking it too could be removed in favor of most of the time having them connected, but with a chance of it not ("The stairway collapses behind you!") With level feelings reduced it seems a decent compromise.

[andrewdoull]

Actually I think the whole 18/XXX system should go too while I'm on the subject, in favor of a flat scale (with 10 internal points for every stat, not just the ones between 18/00-100).

How else do you convey the fact that at high stat levels, a potion of Stat gain increases your stats 'partially' close to the next major stat break, without a fractional stat system (e.g. 18/100 system)?

Or are you happy with a 30-400 stat range?

[Bandobras]

I think it's the right thing to do. I've also been thinking that stat-rolling should go. How on earth is rolling for stats fun or meaningful in the context of this game? The autoroller is ridiculous.

I agree, now that we have point-based.

maximize mode removed in favor of a compromise (instead of a constant bonus, the caps are modified).

I don't get it. You mean races will start with exactly the same stats?

What do you guys think about the connected stairs option?

I always turn it off. Real men don't use stairs.

(birth_no_stairs)

That's actually ironman.

I was thinking it too could be removed in favor of most of the time having them connected, but with a chance of it not ("The stairway collapses behind you!")

I like it, although I prefer semi-persistent levels, for they solve some other problems as well (e.g. trap door on a vault level with several stashes of vital items). But I've heard they are not gonna get into V.

> Or are you happy with a 30-400 stat range?

Yeah, I'd be quite happy, if not for the tradition. 400 still takes less space than 18/134 and the 18/00 visual threshold could be mapped to 100. BTW, I like stats.

[ajps]

I agree, now that we have point-based.

The autoroller is slated to go by the next stable release - though I think Andrew's intention was to still have a random choice thing, it would just use the same internal set up as the point-based method so that everyone starts from the same point.

I like [not guaranteed-connected stairs], although I prefer semi-persistent levels, for they solve some other problems as well (e.g. trap door on a vault level with several stashes of vital items). But I've heard they are not gonna get into V.

The stashes of vital items are the problem, not the lack of persistent levels. If it stops being dangerous to leave things around to pick up later, that makes a major difference to the game. Too heavy but worth a lot of money? Leave it there, I can pick it up just before I use WoR, and so on. It's an inventory management game, and that risk is part of it.

That's for V, obviously. Variants are not Angband, after all.