autoscum bites me in the foot

[Bandobras]

The stashes of vital items are the problem, not the lack of persistent levels.

I don't think they are a problem and I don't think you can solve that problem, whatever you do, for some weak races/classes until mid-game (short of a radical diminishing encumberance penalty and/or the effect of STR on it).

If it stops being dangerous to leave things around to pick up later, that makes a major difference to the game.

What difference exactly, apart of the difference between quitting the game in frustration or playing on, when the bad thing happens?

Too heavy but worth a lot of money? Leave it there, I can pick it up just before I use WoR, and so on.

Yes, I agree this is bad and it would be nice to limit the early game trading micromanagement (e.g. a spell to get 50% of the value on the spot, or shops not buying items at all, or something smarter). But risky stashes completely don't change that, because if it's only money you actually don't care so much.

Where the real difference lies in in stashes of artifacts, rare items you long hunted for and then long enchanted and vital commodities for ironman. Also, the frustration comes when you've almost cleared a vault or a special unique level (in O, say) or finished an epic fight and you are teleported from the level just before even IDing the loot. Yeah, it's very funny, but when it happens the second and third time, it's just pure pain.

It's an inventory management game, and that risk is part of it.

I think this is not _risk_ and it adds nothing to the game, except some cheap surge of blood pressure. I mean, risk is when you have choices and, knowing the odds, you take a risk. I this case, very often (almost always in case of e.g. a Hobbit Mage) you don't have any choice. You can deliberate very long whether you'd rather risk losing the Arvedui or that ego Lance with ESP, but I don't see how this is so very much fun.

P.S. I really like inventory management, so the decision if in the incoming fight I'd rather use Arvedui or a Lance with ESP or both at the cost of -2 to speed is fun to me. But insurance accounting and storage risk management is not what I look for in high fantasy games...

[tigen]

How else do you convey the fact that at high stat levels, a potion of Stat gain increases your stats 'partially' close to the next major stat break, without a fractional stat system (e.g. 18/100 system)?

Or are you happy with a 30-400 stat range?

Well, it could be displayed as 3-40. There is already no difference between 18/04 and 18/05, except tracking how close you are to 18/10. (Alternatively, we could scrap the tenth points. You can simply adjust the "percentage chance to gain" according to how close you are to your maximum stat, so that on average it works out similarly. But then you couldn't guarantee the .1 gain.)

I submit that 3-40 is more natural and intuitive than numbers like 18/142. What is so special about the numbers past 18? 18/0-100 is hardcoded as a special range. But if the max stat is not 18/100, then we might want to make the progression based on an "average to max", bell curve kind of thing.

The whole 3-18 thing might be considered out of place but I'll avoid that discussion.

Another possibility is differentiating between race and class bonuses. A racial bonus could affect your max stat and base stat, while the class bonus only affected your base stat. Haven't really considered that before.

[tigen]

I don't get it. You mean races will start with exactly the same stats?

Hopefully my other reply makes it clear what I was thinking about. You still get bonuses at birth. But you don't get a constant +2 STR (e.g.). Instead your maximum stat becomes 18/100 + 2 = 18/120 (or 30).

I like it, although I prefer semi-persistent levels, for they solve some other problems as well (e.g. trap door on a vault level with several stashes of vital items). But I've heard they are not gonna get into V.

I played Hengband for a bit and it's interesting for sure. But as you say, it would be a rather controversial departure for V. For V, I think making the stairs disconnected "sometimes" would be better than choosing between the two options.

[pav]

A lot of variants ditched the opaque 18/foo system and went for linear statistics. No problem at all. Drop the fractions, always +1 on stat potion. Highly recommended.

[Bandobras]

Drop the fractions, always +1 on stat potion.

As long as you have (unlimited) stat potions. In variants where stat increases are a limited supply, making very high stats harder to increase adds to the strategical fun. And everywhere, that leap in stat increases between 18/00 and 18/50 is really satisfying, until you get used to it.

[ajps]

I don't think they are a problem and I don't think you can solve that problem, whatever you do, for some weak races/classes until mid-game (short of a radical diminishing encumberance penalty and/or the effect of STR on it).

I know you don't think they're a problem, or you wouldn't have mentioned it. I was just noting that it's a designed-in, at least mostly intentional problem, and so one other people (well, me, at least) consider part of the character of the game. Those carefully assigned carrying capacities and number of slots are suddenly much less important if you can store things for later. That's not a bad thing in itself, but I think that it would remove a distinguishing feature from Angband.

The only situation you've described where the equipment is lost and it isn't through a player choosing not to carry it is when you lose a load of loot by being teleported off the level before you've had a chance to look at it. There are only 6 monsters capable of teleporting you off-level before you've dealt with loot - Three uniques, three general monsters (well, one is a unique version of one of the races, Draebor the Imp).

I think that semi-permanent levels and all the hoarding that can go along with it are a bit too much of a sledgehammer to crack that nut. I'd prefer having the ability taken away from the races and left with the uniques, or have it removed altogether, if it's really a problem that needs solving.

Note that I'm counting falling through trapdoors as a choice. It annoys me, but trap detection is considered important enough to have stopped V from getting circular detection spells for years. Trapdoors without penalties like losing loot are hardly traps at all.

P.S. I really like inventory management, so the decision if in the incoming fight I'd rather use Arvedui or a Lance with ESP or both at the cost of -2 to speed is fun to me. But insurance accounting and storage risk management is not what I look for in high fantasy games...

The choices the game enforces are currently pretty simple - carry it, or you're likely to lose it. The insurance worries come from trying to hedge your bets by stashing things for later - if you just decide to stick with your decisions and carry your kit then you can play with more freedom. After all, if you're on a level and are so certain of survival that barring accidents you're going to be able to pick up something later, why aren't you deeper and fighting for your life anyway?

[Bandobras]

Those carefully assigned carrying capacities and number of slots are suddenly much less important if you can store things for later.

First, again, I agree carrying capacities and slots are well balanced and fun as far as choosing what to use in combat and what to leave at home or in stash. In particular the small races/classes are more restricted here and it's OK. And neither stashes no larger home threatens that balance. Unless you count rangers standing over a pile of arrows --- but I hope it doesn't work and for other reasons than trap doors or teleport level.

However, I think the same restrictions wrt. amount you can haul back home or store at home are 1. only a fraction of the fun 2. not well balanced (home is too small after JLE patch, sets and most variants additions and there is very little interesting tactics in managing stashes and bad UI, comparing e.g. with Crawl where you even have a goto stash command).

That's not a bad thing in itself, but I think that it would remove a distinguishing feature from Angband.

I think a limited combat backpack is a distinguishing and very good feature, while risky stashes and (too) limited home are marginal, let alone not fun for some people in the long run.

I think that semi-permanent levels and all the hoarding that can go along with it[...]

I've not played Heng, so if this is the case, perhaps semi-permanent are not as good as I think. Still, perhaps the hoarding can be solved in another way --- perhaps even sorting the stash by price can help a lot, or perhaps make the levels even less permanent --- only 2 levels ever kept permanent, or perhaps add some danger by going through already used stairs, like monsters gathering around them and taking a free round of atacks, etc.

I usually keep one, maximally two stashes, and only with very weak races, and it does not feel like hoarding. Otherwise I'd have to WOR back home every half a level and it feels no warrior-like and is boring (all this shopping all over again). I don't stash things to use them later, except perhaps food, torches and a heavy pick; I only stash new-found loot. I'm not sure if semi-permanent levels would change me into a hoarder, since I can only get 20 items back to town, anyway...

I'd prefer having the ability taken away from the races and left with the uniques, or have it removed altogether, if it's really a problem that needs solving.

For me it is, but there is another cure --- teleport level taking 2 turns, as in Un. Or I've heard Nexus resist helps, but it's hard to get early in some variants. But I wouldn't cry if teleport level is removed from monsters' arsenal. Even if you don't lose any items, it just breaks the battle at a random point and it's frustrating on its own. It's like ancient dragon off-screen breath at DL3, only you don't die, but stand powerless. Stupid, and this is why we don't (usually) have ancient dragons on DL3. I also wouldn't mind removing trap doors --- there are so many interesting traps to be imported from variants that pose more risk, battle-rage, tactics, and less powerless frustration and fatalism.

The insurance worries come from trying to hedge your bets by stashing things for later - if you just decide to stick with your decisions and carry your kit then you can play with more freedom.

There is a misunderstanding here, with trivial exceptions I don't stash things taken from home, only those found in the dungeon. But I don't get back home every half a level, because my warrior mentality pushes me to kill those other ugly evil monsters I've glimpsed on the level, to explore that Superb level and to actually descend deeper before I get back to town shopping again. This is what I risk loot for --- for a battle, for glory, for savage looting, for getting closer to Morgoth's lair. And I shouldn't be punished for such an attitude...

After all, if you're on a level and are so certain of survival that barring accidents you're going to be able to pick up something later, why aren't you deeper and fighting for your life anyway?

Nope, I don't count on being able to fetch any combat-essential gear between battles. I only count on being able, after clearing (a portion of) the level, to refill my battle consumables with those found and scattered on the level and get my heavily earned loot back home.

[pav]

Those carefully assigned carrying capacities and number of slots are suddenly [...]

Now come on, there is nothing carefully designed about the number of slots. It's just what happened to fit on a 80x24 terminal.

[ajps]

Now come on, there is nothing carefully designed about the number of slots. It's just what happened to fit on a 80x24 terminal.

Well, true. What I meant was that the game has been designed around (roughly) that number of slots being available. It was an assumption in the development of the game, and the range and purposes of consumables were put in with the assumption you could carry 22 at most (less once you take into account light, food, WoR).

[pav]

I think the game is too hard for it's own good on it's own inventory. I never seems to fit. I'd like to have the double backpack slots, with the same carrying weight limit. That would be cool.

[ajps]

However, I think the same restrictions wrt. amount you can haul back home or store at home are 1. only a fraction of the fun 2. not well balanced (home is too small after JLE patch, sets and most variants additions and there is very little interesting tactics in managing stashes and bad UI, comparing e.g. with Crawl where you even have a goto stash command).

Well, I see your point, and it's not unreasonable. I think we mostly just have a difference of opinion on the influence low strength should have on playing a given character. I think the game has it about right, but then I don't even consider stashing things for later, I just make do. I may sometimes note that there's something on the floor it might be worth me coming back for, but that's all. I do die a lot, though.

I'll just make the point that the reason the UI for stashes is bad is because people aren't expected to stash things. Making it better would be saying "you're supposed to stash things for later", which I'm guessing is true of Crawl, though I've never had a proper play with it. And I have no objection to a bigger home - the penalty for stashing stuff in the home is big enough in terms of access and the amount you can take out at once to make it no issue as far as I can see.

[Big Al]

I've always found it odd how the backpack works, but I guess I'm used to it, so doesn't really bug me much. It just seems illogical that 99 !ccw take up less space in the backpack than one of each !ccw and !csw.

I was considering whether a new method would work where (eg.):
- up to 99 ammo, of any type, would take up one 'slot'
- up to 20 potions, of any type, would take up one 'slot'
- up to five wands, of any type, would take up one 'slot'
- one weapon would take up one 'slot'
- one armour would take up one 'slot'
- etc.

Still limit it to the 20 or so slots, but allow mix-and-matching of the items of the same kind. Numbers would need to be tweaked. I think that it would totally be impossible to implement in a logical, easy-to-use way, so this is probably just wishful thinking. Just an idea.

[Bandobras]

Well, it's partly done. Quiver does some of this. Un bags do some more. This partly cures TMJ, because some items become useful when you can actually carry them.

[Big Al]

Huh (just tried quivers), apparently I've never noticed what the quiver does. I always thought that it was just a way to use inscriptions on arrows without having to bother actually inscribing them, rather than actually having an in-game use for combining stacks.

Yeah, if we had 'quivers' for other item types, it would be rather good.

[takkaria]

I've always found it odd how the backpack works, but I guess I'm used to it, so doesn't really bug me much. It just seems illogical that 99 !ccw take up less space in the backpack than one of each !ccw and !csw.

Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!

That said, the idea is something interesting to consider, though I have a feeling it would probably require one to have fewer inventory slots generally.