Worst Randart Ever...

[Magnate]

Once you get to 18/50 str and 180+ lbs of inventory it is accurate, and I daresay even most mages manage that before 2500'. Randart generation should certainly be in the context that includes more than half of the dungeon. Earlier on, weight should perhaps cost more, but that is mitigated a bit by a certain amount of weight for free. Since I think you are arguing that this is too big a penalty, your position seems confused to me. I can imagine no reasonable alternative to 30 lb = -1 speed. That should apply to weapons as well, of course.

Hmmmkay - though in the second half of the dungeon you often have some sort of permanent speed item (e.g. AoTrickery if not boots or randart or OoD ring) - and -1 speed is *much* less of a penalty if you are at (say) +3 speed than if you are at +0.

That said, I'm perfectly happy to use a rule of thumb that 30lbs of weight is equivalent to -6 power (since +1 speed is +6 power). That would mean we ought to subtract 1 power point for every 5lbs, which would start to affect things like iron helms (-1.5) and heavy boots. That's if we think weight is linear, of course. I'll start there and see how that affects things.

[Magnate]

Where is this "randart.log"?

On a *nix system, it's in ~/.angband/Angband. I don't play on Windows or Mac so I don't know where it would be.

[Magnate]

I don't understand this at all. Either define a constant or set a value of 1/2 rAcid after you do the other prep work. Then add to the power of all armor. That's only 2 lines of code.

Sure it is - but then I have to balance out any kinks it introduces. For example, it's going to make a cloak [1, +0] an order of magnitude more expensive. Is that right? Do I need to change anything else to avoid that? And so on. I was wrong to say it's a lot of code - but it is a non-trivial amount of work. Which I shall enjoy, of course.

[PowerDiver]

Sure it is - but then I have to balance out any kinks it introduces. For example, it's going to make a cloak [1, +0] an order of magnitude more expensive. Is that right? Do I need to change anything else to avoid that? And so on. I was wrong to say it's a lot of code - but it is a non-trivial amount of work. Which I shall enjoy, of course.

Maybe a plain cloak should sell for 100 AU. Who is to say it should not? It is cheap because it should be easy to make, not because it is useless.

I don't believe in power-based pricing. I think that is separate from not believing in selling, but as a zealot I can't be sure of my motivations. But if you do believe in it, I don't think you should be bothered if an average cloak sells for more than average full plate armor. I, for one, am more likely to use the cloak. In fact, I use a plain cloak practically every game. I don't know if I have ever used non-ego full plate armor longer than to take it home to sell it.

Perhaps the solution is to have separate fixed pricing for items guaranteed to be for sale at the general store, and it should sell the historically cheapest item for each slot at a "reasonable" price. I.e. dagger, sling, cloak, leather whatever else.

[Magnate]

Maybe a plain cloak should sell for 100 AU. Who is to say it should not? It is cheap because it should be easy to make, not because it is useless.

I don't believe in power-based pricing. I think that is separate from not believing in selling, but as a zealot I can't be sure of my motivations. But if you do believe in it, I don't think you should be bothered if an average cloak sells for more than average full plate armor. I, for one, am more likely to use the cloak. In fact, I use a plain cloak practically every game. I don't know if I have ever used non-ego full plate armor longer than to take it home to sell it.

Perhaps the solution is to have separate fixed pricing for items guaranteed to be for sale at the general store, and it should sell the historically cheapest item for each slot at a "reasonable" price. I.e. dagger, sling, cloak, leather whatever else.

IMO the solution is to ensure that the utility of items in the game is proportionate to what they "should" cost. For heavy armour this is a simple matter of ramping up the base AC. If full plate had base AC of 60 instead of 26 it would be a serious proposition, as it would offer serious protection from physical blows, even in the absence of any resists etc. Extending that idea would make mithril plate AC 70 and adamant plate AC80 or so, and then they really would be worth 30k ...

But yes, I too have no real problem with cloaks costing more, just as slings now cost an awful lot more than they used to.

[PowerDiver]

For heavy armour this is a simple matter of ramping up the base AC. If full plate had base AC of 60 instead of 26 it would be a serious proposition,

Heavy armor just isn't suitable for an adventurer. A knight on a horse with attendants can use plate armor. Adventurers? That's a big no. Conan, Fafhrd, Elric, Aragorn, or Corwin? They all should have had plenty of access to finely crafted seriously heavy armor, but never wore it AFAICR. The closest was Elric with magic armor he wore on occasion that for whatever reason seems equivalent encumbrance to leather scale in my vague recollections.

In addition to higher AC, heavy armor should also have serious speed and dex and regen penalties, rendering it unusable for anyone fighting foes whose primary attack is not a melee attack. I suppose for gameplay you just ignore that, and you could rework the AC to try to make plate useful in that short time when characters have a speed boost [AC 60 is not worth a chance of being double-moved by a nasty breather] but aren't in "must collect all resists" mode, if that time even exists, but it hardly seems worth the effort.

[PaulBlay]

In addition to higher AC, heavy armor should also have serious speed and dex and regen penalties

Speed and dex I can see, although I think a trained fighter may not be held back as much as you might assume (I've seen some convincing acrobatic demonstrations by people in full plate ;-). Why the regen penalty though?

[PowerDiver]

Speed and dex I can see, although I think a trained fighter may not be held back as much as you might assume (I've seen some convincing acrobatic demonstrations by people in full plate ;-). Why the regen penalty though?

Surely full plate has to make a bigger difference in attack speed than switching from a 3 lb weapon to a 5 lb weapon.

The regen penalty would be just a sort of equivalence to getting tired faster. Not an exact match, but the best correlation to an existing effect that occurred to me.

[PaulBlay]

Surely full plate has to make a bigger difference in attack speed than switching from a 3 lb weapon to a 5 lb weapon.

I wouldn't be that sure - the leverage is against you with bigger weapons.

[will_asher]

..another canidate

The shovel 'Cammithrim'* (1d2) (+5, +2) (+3)
It increases you charisma by 3. It increases your tunneling by 3. It slays demons. It provides resistance to dark. It sustains your charisma. It speeds your regeneration. It activates for magic missile (2d6) every 2 turns. It cannot be harmed by the elements.

Okay, it's obviously not as bad as that war hammer with nothing really special about it, but it's still pretty bad.

(*-in Eddie's patch, they keep the original names)

[Pete Mack]

Meh. Cammithrim is no great shakes to begin with, so what do you expect?

[miyazaki]

Well, same game: found ?acquirement. I read it and got this...

   The Metal Cap of Kemmin [3,-15] (-2) {cursed}
     Cursed.
     -2 strength, speed.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Drains experience.

Does the RNG hate me?

[Magnate]

Well, same game: found ?acquirement. I read it and got this...

   The Metal Cap of Kemmin [3,-15] (-2) {cursed}
     Cursed.
     -2 strength, speed.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Drains experience.

Does the RNG hate me?

Well, cursed artifacts are bad to begin with, so randomising them won't change that.

@Will: if you're using Eddie's patch, then you're using the original GW randart code, not the new code. (Unless you've somehow combined the two.) So pls let's compare like with like.

[will_asher]

@Will: if you're using Eddie's patch, then you're using the original GW randart code, not the new code. (Unless you've somehow combined the two.) So pls let's compare like with like.

Um, I just opened randart.c of 3.1.0, and looks pretty similar to the same code I'm using. and Miyazaki didn't say which version he was using.

[Magnate]

Um, I just opened randart.c of 3.1.0, and looks pretty similar to the same code I'm using. and Miyazaki didn't say which version he was using.

3.1.0 is the same as the code you're using. Development versions post-r1248 have the new code.

Yes, I'm very interested indeed in which version Miyazaki was using. If he was using a dev version, I have a real problem, because that definitely shouldn't have happened, and I'd be grateful if he could post or send me his randart.log file.