Diablo 3

[chem]

Hi! We all know that the Diablo franchise took many of its ideas from roguelikes, probably even Angband in particular. I really like Diablo and will be playing Diablo 3 on release day.

If anyone wants to play, my battletag is pmchem#1417 and I'll be playing a Hardcore Monk as soon as possible. North America (Eastern time).

This thread is for Diablo 3 chatter! woot.

[Derakon]

I hope you enjoy the game. Personally I'm much more interested in Torchlight 2, since Blizzard made a few decisions about Diablo 3 I don't really like -- specifically, the online requirement and especially the nullification of moddability. Diablo 2 was made absurdly better by the addition of mods, since the base game's drop rates were predicated on the assumptions that a) you would be able to trade with other players, and b) players should be balanced against each other for PvP. Practical upshot being that all of the really interesting gear statistically never dropped. Mods fixed that nicely, and of course also could tweak or completely replace the skills, add new crafting recipes, add more enemies, etc.

Anyway, as I said, I hope you enjoy Diablo 3.

[dzhang]

Erm, hardcore? I don't trust my Internet connection that much...

My battle tag is ghostaxe#1937 if you decide to play normal mode (I'll likely be playing Barbarian or Demon Hunter).

[Magnate]

I'll be online as soon as it's ready - Magnate#2642. I won't be playing hardcore, at least not for a good while. Depending on how good it is, I might be away from Angband for a bit ...

[Magnate]

I'll be online as soon as it's ready - Magnate#2642. I won't be playing hardcore, at least not for a good while. Depending on how good it is, I might be away from Angband for a bit ...

So let me rephrase that: I'll be online as soon as Blizzard recover from the clusterf*** that is release day. Not only did we all have to download it twice (ok so I exaggerate, but lots of people did), we now can't get online.

Error 37: the servers are full. Please try again later.

Also known as:

Error 37: We already have your money, sucker.

Score -1 for online-only games, +eleventy billion for piracy.

[Derakon]

I'm reading that Diablo 3 actually does most of the game logic on the server, MMO-style, meaning that the usual pirate crack (to just omit the "am I authenticated to play this game" check) wouldn't work. You'd need to get a leaked copy of the game logic, or reverse-engineer it, and make your own local server if you wanted to play without a net connection.

Which is really bizarre, frankly.

[Narvius]

I'm reading that Diablo 3 actually does most of the game logic on the server, MMO-style, meaning that the usual pirate crack (to just omit the "am I authenticated to play this game" check) wouldn't work. You'd need to get a leaked copy of the game logic, or reverse-engineer it, and make your own local server if you wanted to play without a net connection.

Which is really bizarre, frankly.

And also the only thing that would ever make me even consider trying this abomination. (that said, I never really liked any of the Diablos.)

[Magnate]

So I finally got online and started a character (playing solo because none of the people I was teed up to play with could get online). First impressions:

- it's pretty, of course. Think about how much nicer D2 looked than D1 (or how much nicer TQ looked than D2), and you have the same sort of progress again. The combat animations (I'm playing a monk) are both smooth and fast (I have a 5750 GPU which seems comfortable at max detail).

- it's eye-wateringly linear, at least so far. Very reminiscent of TQ, in fact - there's basically one route to the next objective, and almost no freedom to deviate from it at all (save for the occasional cellar). So far it feels like a prettier version of TQ. I stopped playing TQ precisely because it was too linear (I took about four or five builds through all three difficulties, compared with dozens of D2 builds).

- this is the biggie - it's been dumbed-down a lot. You get your RMB skill at cl2, your first LMB skill upgrade at cl3, your first "action bar" skill (of which you can eventually have a whole four) at cl4, etc. There aren't any choices - the cl3 upgrade is strictly better, so there's no scope for builds which maintain the cl1 skill instead. As far as I can see at the moment, every monk is going to be identical, at least until much later when the runes come into play. Compare with the divergence of builds in TQ, which starts from the moment you get your first skill point at cl2.

- the dumbing down extends to items too - there are only about four variations of early magic affixes (scouting is +MF, adventuring is +XP, reptilian is +regen, and sharp or solid or whatever it is is +dam). Admittedly this is arguable either way - too many early affixes means lots of junk, but at the moment I fear that the richness of D2's item gen will be absent.

Let's hope it picks up.

[Thraalbee]

Appreciate the review. Will be interesting to see how it develops further ahead.
I use thin clients and laptops but have no gaming rig. But if DIII is good enough I might just have to get one but if it isn't, I wont.

btw, have you tired to play on a laptop? I have an i7-2620M CPU (2.7 GHz, 2core) laptop with Intel built-in graphics. That is hardly enough to run DIII, is it? Did a graphics performance test and it compares to rather slow cards.

[Magnate]

Appreciate the review. Will be interesting to see how it develops further ahead.
I use thin clients and laptops but have no gaming rig. But if DIII is good enough I might just have to get one but if it isn't, I wont.

btw, have you tired to play on a laptop? I have an i7-2620M CPU (2.7 GHz, 2core) laptop with Intel built-in graphics. That is hardly enough to run DIII, is it? Did a graphics performance test and it compares to rather slow cards.

I don't play on a laptop but my brother does - but his is a top-end Macbook with non-integrated graphics. I doubt it would run playably on any integrated GPU.

I built my new rig specifically for D3, and very pleased I did. Went from a 3.2GHz P4HT (3GB RAM) to a 3GHz i3-2120 (8GB). In the process my 5750 went from a 1st-gen x1 PCIe slot to a x16 slot! I'm not sure if D3 makes use of multiple cores though. And I'm not yet using the extra RAM because I haven't installed a 64-bit OS - that's on my to-do list.

[RogerN]

Just a couple of quick comments:

Error 37: the servers are full. Please try again later.

During the Open Beta weekend I found that you could just spam login attempts and eventually got on. It never took me more than 60 seconds (or about 20 attempts) to connect once I starting spamming. I don't have the full game so I don't know if this still works.

You get your RMB skill at cl2, your first LMB skill upgrade at cl3, your first "action bar" skill (of which you can eventually have a whole four) at cl4, etc.

If you turn on elective mode (it's in the Options) then you get a lot more freedom to mix skills. You're not actually limited to a single primary skill or a single secondary skill; that's just the non-elective-mode default UI for newbies.

Let's hope it picks up.

There's a large number of skills for each class, though they unlock slowly in the beginning. The Barbarian for example has 22 skills, and these can be combined with runes for varying effects as well. For comparison, the Diablo 2 classes have about 30 skills - but due to skill trees and the lack of runes there are significantly fewer combinations to play with in D2.

it's eye-wateringly linear, at least so far. Very reminiscent of TQ, in fact - there's basically one route to the next objective, and almost no freedom to deviate from it at all

This is a legitimate criticism IMO. I don't think it's because they were incapable of reducing linearity, especially since the content is procedurally generated (some areas are fairly non-linear; in the Cathedral, for example, I took some significant detours). Instead I believe it was a conscious design decision to appeal to casual gamers. Most people don't want to spend 5 minutes traveling in one direction only to discover it's a dead end. I haven't played the full game, so it's possible that later areas are less linear.

Also, while hard-core gamers might enjoy the challenge of an open world, casual gamers quickly become frustrated if when it's possible to wander into high-level areas without first clearing the low-level places. So yeah, I think level design has been intentionally watered down a bit for the noobs.

[Magnate]

During the Open Beta weekend I found that you could just spam login attempts and eventually got on. It never took me more than 60 seconds (or about 20 attempts) to connect once I starting spamming. I don't have the full game so I don't know if this still works.

It might do but it really shouldn't be necessary - the servers should be intelligent enough to hold a login queue. I'm happy to wait a bit (perhaps not 60s, but certainly 20-30), but I'm not happy to click 20 times.

If you turn on elective mode (it's in the Options) then you get a lot more freedom to mix skills. You're not actually limited to a single primary skill or a single secondary skill; that's just the non-elective-mode default UI for newbies.

Hmmm. I'll have to reserve judgement on this - my issue wasn't really with the UI, but with the dominance - the "strictly better" issue. It's no good having a UI option that lets me use the cl1 skill if I'll never want to use it after cl3. Compare with D2 where you might have chosen to pump cl1 skills for a while instead of immediately using the next level of skills (for example, because they gave better long-term synergy benefits). But as you say, there are lots and lots of skills and permutations to unlock, so the ultimate variety of builds might eventually exceed D2.

Personally I don't hold the view expressed by some (notably Derakon IIRC from other threads) that good design means avoiding self-limiting skill choices. Many of the best AARs I ever read for D2 were the challenge builds that no sane player would have used (like the pacifist necro who maxed Bone Wall, or the singing barb who had *no* skills except cries). Games which try too hard to protect players from bad choices rule out these kinds of alternative builds, which IMO are a vital part of their longevity.

This is a legitimate criticism IMO. I don't think it's because they were incapable of reducing linearity, especially since the content is procedurally generated (some areas are fairly non-linear; in the Cathedral, for example, I took some significant detours). Instead I believe it was a conscious design decision to appeal to casual gamers. Most people don't want to spend 5 minutes traveling in one direction only to discover it's a dead end. I haven't played the full game, so it's possible that later areas are less linear.

Also, while hard-core gamers might enjoy the challenge of an open world, casual gamers quickly become frustrated if when it's possible to wander into high-level areas without first clearing the low-level places. So yeah, I think level design has been intentionally watered down a bit for the noobs.

This I can understand - I too don't like dead ends for the sake of it. I'm thinking more about side quests - I know they weren't a big feature of D2, but a few were optional (e.g. the book and the malus in Act I, sunken temple in Act III) and could be skipped. I hope that later on in D3 there are areas you can go into for side quests if you want, but can also skip if you prefer. IMO that degree of nonlinearity is not unfriendly to newbies.

[dzhang]

Magnate - what class are you playing? I'm just about ready to kill D with my Demon Hunter 31, and my right mouse button skill is Impale... the very first one you get. I just like it better than that later crap. So in terms of linearity of skills with one being inferior to the next one unlocked, I completely disagree for the Demon Hunter.

I thought the game was somehow very short. It's been maybe 12 hours since I started playing, and I didn't aim to power through the game (I watched all cutscenes and read all dialogue). I didn't explore every area for the sake of exploring, but I did go to random dungeons (with the Resplendent Chests) whenever I saw them. 12 hours for a first-timer to beat Normal mode with non-rush tactics seems short compared to D2.

I have yet to find a single Unique or Set items, though I'm getting rares out the wazoo. I like the simplified inventory space system (no more shuffling 4-, 6-, and 8-square items!), and I like the fact that Gold is actually useful and rare now.

I've died a little over 10 times so far: (1) Butcher, (2) Pain Monger (careless), (3) Timed dungeon in Act 2, (4) Belial, (5-6) Fallen Fanatic x2, (7) those guys with the poison hands, (8-9) Izual x2, (10) Diablo.

What did you find easy/hard?

[Magnate]

Magnate - what class are you playing? I'm just about ready to kill D with my Demon Hunter 31, and my right mouse button skill is Impale... the very first one you get. I just like it better than that later crap. So in terms of linearity of skills with one being inferior to the next one unlocked, I completely disagree for the Demon Hunter.

That's good in one sense (progression is not a no-brainer) but bad in another (all the other Demon Hunter RMB skills are crap??). With skill-point systems you can choose between a one-point-wonder and maxing a skill (or something in between). So you might find that a maxed Impale was indeed better than what came later, but before you maxed it some of the others might have been better. I'm really missing that degree of build customisation in D3.

What did you find easy/hard?

I'm still in Act I so I'll let you know when I get there! I'm a monk, and I haven't died yet.

One question: the game often pops up "New Record!" type things, when I kill loads of monsters or destroy lots of scenery. Where are these recorded? I can't find them on the Achievements screen anywhere.

[dzhang]

Well in Diablo 3, you need to have an AoE attack and a boss killer. I went Bola for my LMB (AoE) and Impale for RMB. A lot of people really like Chakram for RMB, but me, I want to unload my SP clip on the bosses, and I don't like switching skill sets all the time. It's possible with later runes the others will be more likable.

Nightmare is a lot more challenging than normal! I must have died 100x already to various champions, that do things like chain freeze you. I have a Wizard that's level 15 if you want to try to play together tomorrow.

No idea about the records.