What's happening with V4?

[getter77]

I should clarify: I use public in the greater public at large sense, at least in terms of RPG enthusiasts that pay mind to happenings on the PC side of things, and Roguelike community in terms of just that beyond what is starkly *BAND-country.

In those groups, at best, and most due to memories, Angband, Steamband, Z(+), Animeband, are the ones with the mindshare such that it is alongside the still blooming Sil and Halls of Mist----even if Oangband has much to it, which it does, the perceptions don't sync up with the reality and that's to the detriment of posterity. Furyband was so moddable and up there at a time that it could somehow interoperate with the classic ToME---but like the former when things went cold they went deathly cold even if the capabilities were still there. Worst case scenarios are near deaths of isolation and silence, as what is currently largely afflicting Portralis despite the fact that, for all it has going for it, it SHOULD be right up there with LambdaRogue in terms of the lively factor and trying to work in some gameplay aspect beyond the average Roguelike. When dev pace isn't alive to so much as defend itself and wave to the gallery, things slip further awry.

NPP is good, and getting better, but folks of the various walks and groups need to know, see, feel, taste, etc it for said betterment to live up to their true potential and even perhaps bring new people into the fold that could one day bring untold boons to the general development ecosystem.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Mikko: 4GAI is largely just pathfinding and spell selection logic; it ought to port to Pyrel without any special difficulty. It does have big ramifications for game balance though. Pyrel's terrain system is extensible and flexible but at the moment it isn't doing much beyond obstruct movement (i.e. walls and doors).

Sounds good!

My own variant doesn't necessarily need 4GAI. Mist's terrain is quite simple to code, too. Once Pyrel is ready, I may well switch to using Pyrel as a base. Python is much more useful to me than C, and I'd really want to learn more.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

NPP is very much in the background as far as public, to say nothing of Roguelike community, awareness.

Sil and Antoine's variants Ironband, Quickband and Minimal were built on NPP. Currently variant maintainers seem to prefer NPP to Vanilla.

I've heard that NPP is a very well balanced, "traditional" version of Angband, and many Angband veterans prefer it to the real thing. So it's quite visible in the Angband community, if not in the roguelike community at large.

It's one of those variants that "just" try to make Angband "better", while sacrificing nothing of the game's tradition and playstyle. Oangband is another. They may not be trendy in larger roguelike circles nowadays but who cares. Both are excellent games for Angband-lovers.

[getter77]

The issue then also comes largely to visibility---Sil has managed to kick up some dust, and 3.4 has done a bit as well largely thanks to the Shockbolt tileset even if it isn't all quite working 100% as per Fizzix's latest video adventure, but NPP is very much in the background as far as public, to say nothing of Roguelike community, awareness. IIRC, due up next for it specifically was a massive overhaul to come focusing on improving the UI and newcomer friendliness----a very good idea as that is the public "weakness" of Angband alongside "just a grindfest, why bother?".

PR isn't quite the operative word, but paying mind to awareness in terms of the mindshare at large is key to getting people into the game and interacting---be it old timers coming back or outright newcomers. There needs to be some slick bits of excitement, like how Angband was THE vehicle tor Roguelike modding in the heyday and that was pretty duly noted by folks at the time. Even Classical Projects have much to gain from staying sharp, like the ongoing transformation of ADOM thanks to that IGG campaign and actually getting a team involved with differing disciplines.

Like, I remember his mockups, and Shockbolts theoretical UI overhauls, as opposed to just the graphics, were definitely food for thought.

Specifics: http://www.roguelikeradio.com/ Part 2 was where the discussion happened, but I'd think both parts have some food for thought at times. Essentially, it came down to the notion of pushing boundaries with graphical styles beyond the bitmap, not getting typecast as just a thing to browbeat people with via Adobe's Flash, etc, SVG, etc alongside Voxel chat and making fonts more interesting. My intimation for it mainly comes down to Best Angband being Scrappy Angband looking to push frontiers on any number of fronts because the core of the game is just that damned awesome as meted out by history and just a solid core. The competition comes from it simply being a better time of it for all if all are in good shape and keeping things lively with panache---not a firefight but a bit o' camaraderie while bearing in mind folks do have finite time that often becomes more spoken for over time.

So having the capabilities is all well and good, but it will be essential to proudly display and polish them with the utmost flair---as well as having a good starting default such that people can still tinker later should they so choose, but they definitely can't if those initial hooks don't quite set.

[Derakon]

The goal for Pyrel isn't necessarily to "compete" with other roguelikes for feature sets, though of course a good design will leave the door open for adding new features later. Pyrel just wants to make it easier to tweak Angband to play the way we want it to. I do however hope that the game, when finished, will make a reasonably hacker-friendly system for people who are new to game development.

I'm not entirely clear what you mean by vector support for T4. Do you mean using OpenGL rendering? Because Pyrel could totally do that -- in fact, I considered replacing the existing drawing logic with OpenGL-based logic simply because WxWidget's software text renderer is slow. While the "base" UI code does assume a grid layout, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from implementing a UI that doesn't need it -- you could in fact make a 3D first-person roguelike from Pyrel if you wanted to, and the only extra work you'd have to do would be in the UI.

Mikko: 4GAI is largely just pathfinding and spell selection logic; it ought to port to Pyrel without any special difficulty. It does have big ramifications for game balance though. Pyrel's terrain system is extensible and flexible but at the moment it isn't doing much beyond obstruct movement (i.e. walls and doors).

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Python would be a big plus for many variant maintainers.

On the other hand, NPP has 4GAI, Unangband terrain infrastructure, and most (all?) of Vanilla's UI improvements. Until Pyrel has similar features, NPP will be a tough competitor.

Because NPP is so good, non-Pyrel Vanilla wouldn't necessarily need to focus on being a good base for variants -- it could just focus on being the best possible Classic Angband.

[getter77]

The main thing that it comes down to other than the finer details on direct gameplay is the enticement factor for new players/modders to do their thing. Current frontrunners in that regard would be Tales of Maj'Eyal with the modular T-Engine 4, hopefully soon joining Legend of Siegfried in a modular form but not going with ToME4's Lua, and I guess the latest darkhorse in the form of X@COM RL that just recently gained modding capabilities----but has seen seen formidable dev pace on the subject.

For Pyrel and whatnot to take on the mantle, reckonings will need to be had on what the next steps forward are, as it is an entirely different landscape versus the classic days when the *BAND experience was very much a defining thing in the whole of the Roguelike menagerie for years and years. The obvious answers is to steal any and all good general ideas from all the existing variants and mega-variants, defunct and otherwise---but even all that only goes so far.

For instance, prompted by the latest episode of Roguelike Radio, a certain Regular Combatant over on T4's end of things got to thinking about Vector support on the graphical/fonty side of things---with the current state of that being not-anticipated and quite possibly none too easy a feature to implement at this stage of the engine so far along.

In other words, there needs to be blood on that edge for best effect as opposed to just a perceived sharpness.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

What's not to like?

I agree! It's been a very good year.

- I love the V4 changes, especially the combat system.
- I like the changes for 3.4.
- I'd love to base Halls of Mist on Pyrel some day.

I was just looking into the future, mapping some options. I don't believe that Pyrel with its big gameplay changes could be renamed to Angband without many traditionalists becoming angry. I see two options, and either is fine by me: embrace the controversy or have two separate games. If there will be two separate games, it might be cool if Classic Angband had a maintainer and roadmap of its own.

[Nick]

Base Beleriand on Pyrel and proclaim that it's the proud future of Angband. Lots of developers and fast progress.

OK, that was really tongue-in-cheek.

Just as well. Say that again and I will destroy you.

Seriously, though, I think Angband is in a fairly creative state of flux at the moment. There are some very interesting new variants (possibly incorrect terminology) emerging, 3.4 looks good, there are plans for 3.5, the v4 project achieved at least some of its aims, and the pyrel project is keeping Magnate busy showing signs of promise. What's not to like?

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Here's a proposal.

Let's have Jeff Greene for the maintainer of Angband. NPP is already more balanced and more traditional than Vanilla Angband. (I don't know anything about this really, that's just the impression I've been getting by reading forum posts.)

Base Beleriand on Pyrel and proclaim that it's the proud future of Angband. Lots of developers and fast progress.

OK, that was really tongue-in-cheek. But it might actually be a possible option that both the Classic Angband and Future Angband had a distinct identity and maintainer(s) with vision and big plans.

[fizzix]

Note that I was assuming that most of the devs are traditionalists to a degree, and that they must agree among themselves. It's impossible to make everyone happy, and paralyzing to aim for that.

It's remarkably difficult to get agreement from all the devs.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

That's the thinking that led to 3.2. I like the new thinking better...

Note that I was assuming that most of the devs are traditionalists to a degree, and that they must agree among themselves. It's impossible to make everyone happy, and paralyzing to aim for that.

[buzzkill]

Angband has a very long history and a lot of people feel a sense of ownership of it.

This line reminded of a documentary I recently watched. I can't remember the name of it (it's on Netflix), but it was about George Lucas and (predominately) Star Wars. It's not just about the dissatisfaction with the prequels, but also the "enhanced" original movies. Hardcore fans hate the enhanced remakes because they feel some "ownership" over the original versions (which Lucas, won't re-release on DVD, only fragile VHS copies exist) and don't care for many of the changes.

[Antoine]

Don't think "Do these changes offend someone", but rather "Do these changes offend my own vision of Angband". It's enough if you devs agree to do something, even if it would make some other people angry.

That's the thinking that led to 3.2. I like the new thinking better...

A.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Angband has a very long history and a lot of people feel a sense of ownership of it.

It's important for the developers to not internalize this horrible sense of responsibility to a paralyzing extent.

Don't think "Do these changes offend someone", but rather "Do these changes offend my own vision of Angband". It's enough if you devs agree to do something, even if it would make some other people angry.

It's alright to cause controversies from time to time. That's the only way to create the best possible Angband.