The cruelty of the RNG

[jevansau]

L42 Dunadan priest at L74 finds this weapon - at first glance godly, at second glance almost worthless
a Golden Mace of *Slay Evil* (7d17) (+200,+321) <+400..>
Dropped by Saruman of Many Colours at 3700 feet (level 74).

+1 wisdom, tunneling, light radius.
Slays evil creatures (x1.28), undead (x5.00).
Provides protection from stunning.
Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
Blessed by the gods.

Combat info:
You are too weak to use this weapon.
Receives 25% of your finesse score, 75% of your prowess score.
1.0 blow/round.
1.0x damage multiplier.
Average damage/round: 63 vs. normal creatures, 126 vs. creatures
made of stone, 126 vs. creatures hurt by light, 63 vs. evil
creatures, 315 vs. undead.

The kicker is the weight - 191.1 lbs, so not really usable by any character.

Should there be an upper limit on the weight of generated weapons?, or should the upper 2 strength categories get a more generous weight limit?
It seems wrong to generate weapons that cannot be used by any character.

Regards,
Jonathan

[Derakon]

Should there be an upper limit on the weight of generated weapons?, or should the upper 2 strength categories get a more generous weight limit?
It seems wrong to generate weapons that cannot be used by any character.

I dunno, I find this rather funny, and I'd certainly rather see it than a weapon that I can't use because it's too weak.

(For reference, the heaviest possible effectively-wieldable weapon would be 100 pounds, requiring a STR of 18/200+ to use)

[Magnate]

L42 Dunadan priest at L74 finds this weapon - at first glance godly, at second glance almost worthless
a Golden Mace of *Slay Evil* (7d17) (+200,+321) <+400..>
Dropped by Saruman of Many Colours at 3700 feet (level 74).

+1 wisdom, tunneling, light radius.
Slays evil creatures (x1.28), undead (x5.00).
Provides protection from stunning.
Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
Blessed by the gods.

Combat info:
You are too weak to use this weapon.
Receives 25% of your finesse score, 75% of your prowess score.
1.0 blow/round.
1.0x damage multiplier.
Average damage/round: 63 vs. normal creatures, 126 vs. creatures
made of stone, 126 vs. creatures hurt by light, 63 vs. evil
creatures, 315 vs. undead.

The kicker is the weight - 191.1 lbs, so not really usable by any character.

Should there be an upper limit on the weight of generated weapons?, or should the upper 2 strength categories get a more generous weight limit?
It seems wrong to generate weapons that cannot be used by any character.

I think there should be an upper limit on weight - without one, there's nothing to stop the affix system adding weight until the weapon is over 100lbs and unusable by anyone.

Personally I'd also go for re-calibrating the scale, because the heaviest usable weapon ought to be closer to 50lb than 100lb.

[debo]

L42 Dunadan priest at L74 finds this weapon - at first glance godly, at second glance almost worthless
a Golden Mace of *Slay Evil* (7d17) (+200,+321) <+400..>
Dropped by Saruman of Many Colours at 3700 feet (level 74).

+1 wisdom, tunneling, light radius.
Slays evil creatures (x1.28), undead (x5.00).
Provides protection from stunning.
Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
Blessed by the gods.

Combat info:
You are too weak to use this weapon.
Receives 25% of your finesse score, 75% of your prowess score.
1.0 blow/round.
1.0x damage multiplier.
Average damage/round: 63 vs. normal creatures, 126 vs. creatures
made of stone, 126 vs. creatures hurt by light, 63 vs. evil
creatures, 315 vs. undead.

The kicker is the weight - 191.1 lbs, so not really usable by any character.

Should there be an upper limit on the weight of generated weapons?, or should the upper 2 strength categories get a more generous weight limit?
It seems wrong to generate weapons that cannot be used by any character.

Regards,
Jonathan

Man, Saruman has been pumping iron!!

[d_m]

I think there should be an upper limit on weight - without one, there's nothing to stop the affix system adding weight until the weapon is over 100lbs and unusable by anyone.

Personally I'd also go for re-calibrating the scale, because the heaviest usable weapon ought to be closer to 50lb than 100lb.

I am fine with an upper limit but I like the idea that the upper limit might be higher than anyone can (optimally) use.

[Thraalbee]

I am fine with an upper limit but I like the idea that the upper limit might be higher than anyone can (optimally) use.

+1. Limitations of @ does not apply to all denizens of Angband so logically some super weapons could be unusable. This is fine as long as they are rare. If common, it will have the opposite effect - annoying - instead of adding flavour.

[Magnate]

+1. Limitations of @ does not apply to all denizens of Angband so logically some super weapons could be unusable. This is fine as long as they are rare. If common, it will have the opposite effect - annoying - instead of adding flavour.

Hmmm. If we're happy for unusable uberweapons being generated to add flavour, I suspect they're rare enough already. But the OP's view was that finding a single one was annoying ...

[CyclopsSlayer]

Hmmm. If we're happy for unusable uberweapons being generated to add flavour, I suspect they're rare enough already. But the OP's view was that finding a single one was annoying ...

Part of the problem is that if the game generated such super heavy weapons only on the ground, then you could shrug it off.

But by Risk vs. Reward a 'useless' item dropping from a unique is rather like the lump of coal in the Christmas Stocking. More of a slap in the face than a reward. Now such items have always existed, the heavily cursed Morgoth items comes to mind, but those are more trophies than things getting you ready for the final boss.
As a semi-rare event, fine. But if multiple qualities each start adding a mass multiplier, then the weaker or weight limited might be penalized, and if the chance becomes too common players could become gear starved.

[Derakon]

As a semi-rare event, fine. But if multiple qualities each start adding a mass multiplier, then the weaker or weight limited might be penalized, and if the chance becomes too common players could become gear starved.

This is the first such weapon I've heard of, and I've yet to see an unusably heavy weapon in my own games. I think we shouldn't take any action on this until we have more data.

[AnonymousHero]

If it's very rare it won't hurt to limit the weight.

If it's too heavy to actually use it will frustrate at least one player who discovers such a weapon. (And I suppose it'll reduce the pool of randarts further?)

My conclusion is: Limit weight. Don't frustrate players needlessly.

[buzzkill]

Not that I really care but.... since it's presently viewed as flavor, either leave it in, or eliminate it. That is, if something too heavy is generated, then replace it with nothing.

[Magnate]

This is the first such weapon I've heard of, and I've yet to see an unusably heavy weapon in my own games. I think we shouldn't take any action on this until we have more data.

This is the kind of thing that's easy to add to the stats module.

This isn't the first unusably heavy weapon that's been reported (I'm aware of three or four). There are 12 weapon affixes which can increase weight (albeit only four which increase it by more than 20%), and that number is only going to go up. So I think I'm in favour of limiting the weight to the very top of the wieldable scale. At 1.0 blows per round the heaviest weapons are rarely going to be competitive anyway - but if they have godly dice they might be an interesting choice.

[Derakon]

At 1.0 blows per round the heaviest weapons are rarely going to be competitive anyway - but if they have godly dice they might be an interesting choice.

Remember that, now, blows/round has nothing to do with weapon weight as long as you're strong enough to wield the weapon properly. You could have a massive trollish blackrock rapier or the like which would have big dice but still be finesse-biased.

[Magnate]

Remember that, now, blows/round has nothing to do with weapon weight as long as you're strong enough to wield the weapon properly. You could have a massive trollish blackrock rapier or the like which would have big dice but still be finesse-biased.

Yes, that would most certainly be a problem. The affixes were done exactly wrongly for the new combat system: finesse-type affixes added sides, while size- and weight- type affixes added dice. In fact we want finesse weapons to have lots of small dice and prowess weapons to have few big dice, so the affixes need realigning. They also need to adjust balance and heft so that really big weapons always have 0% finesse to end up with 1.0 blows.