Love the new room types

[CunningGabe]

I just wanted to say that one of the things I really like about v4 is the new variety of rooms. Nomad did some great work adding these, and I feel they really spice up dungeon exploration.

Along these lines, I think it would be great to pull the pit/nest layouts out into a file. Currently, there are only two layouts, and the only difference between them is how monsters are arranged. It would be nice, however, to have pits of different sizes and types.

Another nice addition which d_m and I have discussed for ages is themed rooms. An armory full of weapons and armor; a library full of scrolls, etc. We don't currently have a method to generate a level-appropriate item of a particular type, but I've written up a way that I think should work. So I think I'll take a crack at adding some rooms like that soon.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Re: themed rooms.

IMO themed rooms are worth it only if there are some new terrain features, like weapon racks or bookshelves, to come with them.

Unangband is the king in themed rooms! If you want to go that way, it's essential to play some Un first.

Ey and Fay had for ages minimally themed rooms, with themed monsters and some themed objects lying on the floor. Frankly, I don't think they added that much to the game. In the dev version I've implemented themed rooms with lots of new terrain features.

My closets, weapon racks, and bookshelves need to be searched for items. Occasionally the items are hidden, and then you need to succeed in Perception roll to find them -- otherwise you just miss them. I guess these hidden items could be implemented just like the new trap detection in v4.

I also recommend having a room style that has lots of traps and extra items. It leads to interesting gameplay.

[Magnate]

It was the searching of closets and cupboards that put me off Un. YMMV I guess. I'm not averse to extra terrain features per se, but having to search them doesn't appeal.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

It was the searching of closets and cupboards that put me off Un. YMMV I guess. I'm not averse to extra terrain features per se, but having to search them doesn't appeal.

Would you like it more if the searching was automatic when you're walking next to the closet? Many of you people developing v4 seem to dislike repeated searching, so I'm predicting everything search-related will eventually end up working like that.

Un has lots of stuff. I guess everybody likes different things. Luckily you can just pick and choose.

[Magnate]

Would you like it more if the searching was automatic when you're walking next to the closet? Many of you people developing v4 seem to dislike repeated searching, so I'm predicting everything search-related will eventually end up working like that.

Well I guess it's like this: if a closet requires a special command to search it, or to open it and take something out of it, I don't like it - seems like additional complexity for minimal gain (trapped closets? I can live without). But if a closet doesn't require any manual searching, and putting items into it and taking them out are as simple as 'd' and 'g' ... then what's the point of having it? It's just like any other square.

So I don't really see the point of closets. Trees, pillars, pits, icebergs, scree, lava .... I can see the point of lots of terrain features, just not closets.

[Derakon]

I see two points. First is flavor, which isn't to be discounted. The Vanilla dungeon is very bare-bones, so there's basically no "there for the sake of being there" features, but that doesn't mean that having something there just because it looks neat is bad. Would you object to having a table and chairs in a room even if they had no impact on gameplay?

The second, though, is that any item in a closet wouldn't be visible until you got close enough to the closet to (automatically if need be) open it and look inside. Sort of like chests in that respect.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Some reasons of existence for closets, bookshelves, and weapon racks in the next version of Fay:

• They make it easy to notice what is the room's theme, which gives lots of information for the player. For example, having green walls (closets) also means that the room is trapped. And a blue wall (weapon rack) means that this is a barracks area, with many orcs and soldiers. Nearby rooms are likely to be similarly themed.
• They hold different kinds of items.
• Sometimes the items are hidden. You need Perception to find them. I want Perception to matter. This would not be practical without closets.
• They can have secret doors! I've actually removed all other kinds of secret doors.
• They just look nice.

[pav]

The Vanilla dungeon is very bare-bones, .

Sorry, no bones either, anymore. Just bare.

[Magnate]

I see two points. First is flavor, which isn't to be discounted. The Vanilla dungeon is very bare-bones, so there's basically no "there for the sake of being there" features, but that doesn't mean that having something there just because it looks neat is bad. Would you object to having a table and chairs in a room even if they had no impact on gameplay?

I certainly wouldn't object to them as the kind of decor we've seen on Shockbolt's terrain tiles (manacles on walls, bits of skeletons on floors etc. - including actual tables and chairs). But how would they be represented in ASCII, and why? IMO the way to deliver flavour in ASCII is through messages (e.g. "You see broken furniture and bones scattered across the floor" as you open the door), not though additional characters that one has to mentally discard as neither an object nor a monster.

The second, though, is that any item in a closet wouldn't be visible until you got close enough to the closet to (automatically if need be) open it and look inside. Sort of like chests in that respect.

This is fair (and chimes with a lot of Mikko's reasons) - personally my OCD prevents me enjoying the idea that I might have failed to perceive an item hidden in a closet, so I'd want to smash them all up to make sure. But I accept that this is not a good basis for design.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I certainly wouldn't object to them as the kind of decor we've seen on Shockbolt's terrain tiles (manacles on walls, bits of skeletons on floors etc. - including actual tables and chairs). But how would they be represented in ASCII, and why?

The current version of Fay has text descriptions for room styles (Eytan borrowed them from an ancient version of Un). They either need a subwindow for room descriptions or messages. I usually like to use my subwindows for other purposes, and text messages are very easy to forget.

I just use differently coloured wall squares for the closets. They are much faster to perceive than textual descriptions, and impossible to forget.

The room theme is important information in Fay. I don't want the player to forget it!

An additional bonus is that mapping effects can give away room theme from a distance.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

not though additional characters that one has to mentally discard as neither an object nor a monster.

I have this exact problem with themed ASCII floor squares in Un. I didn't want them in Fay. But I find themed wall squares much easier to handle than themed floor squares.

You do have to be very careful when adding new terrain squares. You don't want too many, and every terrain feature should really matter.

I just use differently colored #'s for tables, platforms, and special walls.

I've added four special wall types but I also removed two, magma and quartz. They actually distract me much more than my new, differently coloured wall squares since they have different ASCII characters and not just colour.

[buzzkill]

I have this exact problem with themed ASCII floor squares in Un. I didn't want them in Fay. But I find themed wall squares much easier to handle than themed floor squares.

I just use differently colored #'s for tables, platforms, and special walls.

So, there will never be a table in the middle of a room? A particular color of wall indicates that a table is adjacent to it or a that section of wall contains a closet?

[Mikko Lehtinen]

So, there will never be a table in the middle of a room? A particular color of wall indicates that a table is adjacent to it or a that section of wall contains a closet?

No no, tables and platforms are always inside the room, and they never touch walls. I'll take a screenshot, much easier than explaining.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Here's a screenshot of a room with closets and a table. The player and a wizard of some sort are standing on a table, and a giant is on the floor.

I would probably want to fight the giant while standing on the table, because higher ground gives me defensive bonuses.

The closet gives away that the floor is trapped. It also tells me that this is a "civilized" area with persons, some kinds of humanoids, and golems, but animals only rarely.

After being searched the closet turns from green # to green =.



Edit: that table is awfully large when you think about it. Usually tables are much smaller than that but still... Maybe I should change the scale of the map to smaller than 10 feet per square, or just abstract away the scale to "squares".

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Re: tables and other furniture.

The scale of Angband is huge, assuming that each grid is 10 ft * 10 ft. (Is it? Or is it left purposely vague?) Most furniture I can think of would only take one grid. That makes adding tactically interesting furniture a bit challenging.

I decided to make the scale of Fay smaller, 5 ft * 5 ft per square.

I also made tables much smaller. IMO the smallest practical size for a table is 2*2, because then you can easily see when the player, monster or an object is on a table:

#@
##

I decided to make either the width or length of a table almost always exactly 2. (The only exception is 3*3 tables that are sometimes generated.)