[Announce] Poschengband 3.0.0 Released

[Arjen]

Would you mind sharing that line? !worthless doesn't seem to affect all cursed items, and I wasn't able to find a line that did.

!{cursed} does the trick.

And I'm sorry Chris, but I like playing monsters who don't have id spells and most of the time crappy MD skill. So I just don't have space to carry 4-5 {cursed} items around who might or might not be an (useful) ego which you can't tell until actually ided.

[Avenger]

I must say that I am rather disappointed that players would simply ignore cursed items. That was the old game design: Cursed = Crap, never to be used intentionally by the player and often a cause for suicide if used accidentally. Items in general were either all good or all bad. The cursed item changes are an effort an changing this mechanic, and based on my personal play, I have found the change to be rather interesting.

Would you really decline to use "cursed" armor of elvenkind that also has, say sound vulnerability? Especially if it is the first source of resistance that you find? Of course a "cursed" weapon of slay orc won't warrant consideration, but then again, when has a non-cursed weapon of slay orc sparked interest?

You certainly can decide to just ignore cursed items, but I think you will be missing out if you do. If the strain of identification is too much then try playing a class with an identify spell (or at least one that can use a staff of idenitfy)!

Just my 2 cents, of course ...

Yes, I would really ignore them. Even playing a Berserker, with pseudo-id that works almost instantly.

God forbid I'm playing another class that doesn't - when an item finally pops cursed, I'm getting rid of it immediately - no sense cluttering my inventory with what is almost certainly crap.

Indeed, with the additional requirement to *id* everything in Poscheng to see what it actually does, there is less then no point to bringing up cursed items on the very, very rare chance they turn out to be a useful ego with a tolerable curse.

I can see why, in theory, having mixed enchantments on items would seem like a fun and interesting idea. But in practice, especially with the way the pseudo/id/*id* hierarchy works in poscheng, it simply does not create a fun experience.

I create a line in that auto_pick-up which destroys all {cursed} items, as artifacts cant be destroyed, you only keep those. I know I'm not going to use cursed egos. Why have slay orc if you are also aggravating? 95% of the time the curse isn't worth the benefits.

Would you mind sharing that line? !worthless doesn't seem to affect all cursed items, and I wasn't able to find a line that did.

I've gotten super early perma-cursed rand-arts from Smeagol, Wormtongue, Robin Hood, etc a fair number of times. I've even instantly worn the drop without first identifying it, and even at times when I had identify in my pack! It is certainly rare, but not unheard of.

Ah. I suppose with randarts it is possible. As a long time MAngband player, who rarely survived long enough in other variants to find artifacts, I'm used to exactly two permacursed items - The One and the Massive Iron Crown. Neither of these can possibly be mistaken for anything else at any stage of identification.

I do have randarts turned on in PosCheng(or rather, I have normal arts turned off, since many of them are underwhelming and I'd rather try to generate useful abilities by luck), so it is a feature I'm starting to become familiar with.

There are no longer "bad items". In fact, this is one of the things I am attempting to address with the 3.0 release. Instead, items (even normal egos) often are mixed blessings, with some good features and some bad features (e.g. Troll armor that increases your strength but makes you slow and stupid).

Cursed egos/artifacts start with a normal ego/artifact and then apply various bad stuff. Admittedly, often times the end result is not worth it, but I have found that often it is, especially in the early game. Later on, you can find cursed boots of speed, weapons of Noldor, etc, and then, you may be able to stomach the bad effects, especially if they touch on attributes that your class doesn't need (e.g. Spell Power for a Warrior).

The goal is to change the cursed meta-game from "cursed items are always bad, and therefor something to ignore/squelch" to "cursed items might be something useful after all".

(Of course, there were some cursed standard arts that were useful, but the means of cursing them were rather shallow: aggravation, drain experience, negative pvals, etc. Cursed rand-arts and egos were *always* bad items. Boots of Annoyance, boots of slowness, etc).

Again, with the current identification system, particularly the Poscheng requirement to *id* things to find most of their abilities, this is really not translating as well to actual gameplay as you seem to have intended.

Additionally, I don't really understand the lore perspective on cursed egos. Why the hell would anyone make, for example, a weapon of Morgul? Even the baddies who would presumably use them, the Nazgul and associated enemies, don't want to aggravate, or have penalties to hit and damage rather then bonuses. Can you imagine how much easier WitchKing would be if he spammed misses in melee and all his summons aggro'd onto him because his dumbass was wielding a Morgul blade? Same goes for boots of annoyance or armors of vulnerability - they exist simply as "trap" items that punish people for using without id'ing.

Granted, your stated goal is to change that, but in the process you seem to have created an even worse kind of trap item =P at least with boots of slowness, if I survive, I can get to town and get them off. With a surprise permacurse, the game is over.

[chris]

@chris, that is an awesome idea. Mind if I shamelessly steal it for Neoband?

Not at all!

[Therem Harth]

@chris, that is an awesome idea. Mind if I shamelessly steal it for Neoband?

[chris]

While this is true, there were very few permacursed artifacts(short of rand-arts, I suppose - I haven't played many variants with those, though), and none of them were whips. Moreso, none of them were available so incredibly early - if memory serves.

I've gotten super early perma-cursed rand-arts from Smeagol, Wormtongue, Robin Hood, etc a fair number of times. I've even instantly worn the drop without first identifying it, and even at times when I had identify in my pack! It is certainly rare, but not unheard of.

This one came out of the thieves' den quest. While one can certainly expect cursed items and associated consequences at this point, a permacurse is not something that would have ever occurred to me so early in the game. Luckily, being that early, it didn't really ruin anything in progress - it was just a complete shock.

My suggestion would be to keep it on bad items. This was a good ego type ...

There are no longer "bad items". In fact, this is one of the things I am attempting to address with the 3.0 release. Instead, items (even normal egos) often are mixed blessings, with some good features and some bad features (e.g. Troll armor that increases your strength but makes you slow and stupid).

Cursed egos/artifacts start with a normal ego/artifact and then apply various bad stuff. Admittedly, often times the end result is not worth it, but I have found that often it is, especially in the early game. Later on, you can find cursed boots of speed, weapons of Noldor, etc, and then, you may be able to stomach the bad effects, especially if they touch on attributes that your class doesn't need (e.g. Spell Power for a Warrior).

The goal is to change the cursed meta-game from "cursed items are always bad, and therefor something to ignore/squelch" to "cursed items might be something useful after all".

(Of course, there were some cursed standard arts that were useful, but the means of cursing them were rather shallow: aggravation, drain experience, negative pvals, etc. Cursed rand-arts and egos were *always* bad items. Boots of Annoyance, boots of slowness, etc).

[chris]

I must say that I am rather disappointed that players would simply ignore cursed items. That was the old game design: Cursed = Crap, never to be used intentionally by the player and often a cause for suicide if used accidentally. Items in general were either all good or all bad. The cursed item changes are an effort an changing this mechanic, and based on my personal play, I have found the change to be rather interesting.

Would you really decline to use "cursed" armor of elvenkind that also has, say sound vulnerability? Especially if it is the first source of resistance that you find? Of course a "cursed" weapon of slay orc won't warrant consideration, but then again, when has a non-cursed weapon of slay orc sparked interest?

You certainly can decide to just ignore cursed items, but I think you will be missing out if you do. If the strain of identification is too much then try playing a class with an identify spell (or at least one that can use a staff of idenitfy)!

Just my 2 cents, of course ...

[Arjen]

I'm with Susramanian on this one. The change to the stone of lore was so mind-blowingly awesome that most of us said to ourselves, wait, id doesn't have to be tedious?

The change to cursed items seems like a step backwards. Can't I just ignore them again or do I really have to id all of them in case it's an artifact or something else good or worth money? Sure I can still ignore them but it seems like pseudo-id-ing an item as cursed doesn't help you get on with the game anymore.

I create a line in that auto_pick-up which destroys all {cursed} items, as artifacts cant be destroyed, you only keep those. I know I'm not going to use cursed egos. Why have slay orc if you are also aggravating? 95% of the time the curse isn't worth the benefits.

[Roch]

I'm with Susramanian on this one. The change to the stone of lore was so mind-blowingly awesome that most of us said to ourselves, wait, id doesn't have to be tedious?

The change to cursed items seems like a step backwards. Can't I just ignore them again or do I really have to id all of them in case it's an artifact or something else good or worth money? Sure I can still ignore them but it seems like pseudo-id-ing an item as cursed doesn't help you get on with the game anymore.

[chris]

PS: Chris, this wasn't aimed at you in particular; you just had the quote that prompted me to vent

It's a fair criticism, but this was not my design decision. Look, the game has been this way for almost 20 years. My quote has been applicable ever since Zangband came out in what, 1994?

I'm just being consistent!

[Susramanian]

Woes of identification

You should never wield an un-id'd item or quaff an un-id'd potion ever.

So for an appreciable amount of the game's loot, the identification mechanic serves as... what? A simple chore that must be performed before proceeding with the more interesting task of deciding whether the item is right for you?

Blech.

Look, players only have so much of a limited resource. Call it endurance, or patience, or willpower, or something better. It's like mana, but for video game players. And when it runs out, they quit playing your game. Every time your game presents a player with a decision to make, and the player makes a choice, they use up a bit of their mana. A game developer's job is to decide which decisions they want to force the player to make. All the decisions use up the player's mana, so which ones do you pick?

Hint: Avoid uninformed ones. Avoid ones between the optimal and the fun. Avoid meaningless ones.

So, Angband and Angband-variant maintainers: want to use up everybody's limited mana with a decision to expend ID resources for (nearly) every damned piece of loot that hits the dungeon floor? Please don't.

PS: Chris, this wasn't aimed at you in particular; you just had the quote that prompted me to vent

[Avenger]

You should never wield an un-id'd item or quaff an un-id'd potion ever. That's nothing new as the item could be a permacursed artifact or the potion could be death, both of these options having been around forever. So at the very least, you should be waiting for pseudo-id. At that point, never ever wield a {cursed} item without *identifying* it (This is new).

While this is true, there were very few permacursed artifacts(short of rand-arts, I suppose - I haven't played many variants with those, though), and none of them were whips. Moreso, none of them were available so incredibly early - if memory serves, this one came out of the thieves' den quest. While one can certainly expect cursed items and associated consequences at this point, a permacurse is not something that would have ever occurred to me so early in the game. Luckily, being that early, it didn't really ruin anything in progress - it was just a complete shock.

That being said, I could be persuaded to remove perma-curse from ego items. (It's always been around for artifacts.) Or at the very least, I could put a power threshold so that only very powerful cursed items have an appreciable chance of being permacursed.

My suggestion would be to keep it on bad items. This was a good ego type, one I'd never have expected anything bad on, much less something game-endingly bad. Granted, that doesn't do much for wielding it un-id'd, but come on - why would a good item type carry a curse? Much less an unbreakable one?

You can "remove" permacursed items with a scroll of mundanity (which destroys the object as well). But these are a bit rare.

I have never seen one of these, though to be fair the majority of my games don't go very long. It's fair to say that, as a level 4 character, I would have been stuck with that item for a very, very long time, and it would have made the game far more of a challenge then it was worth, even had I known there was that option.

Additionally, it's not an option available to every class - perhaps you could apply Mundanity to any object forcefully uncursed by a Berserker? I can't think of any other exceptions at this point, but having just played one of those, it came to mind.

So, the bright side of the new wilderness is:
* Player now gets full experience from any monster slain.
* Player now gets drops at the current danger level.
* There are a few random wilderness encounters (very few at the moment ... I'll be adding more later).

Hmm. Is exploring the wilderness a viable alternative to dungeoncrawling, then? That might be worth looking into, if so.

As far as I'm concerned, the heng/cheng/entro(I've played all three at various stages of development) wildernesses were just an annoying obstacle to be traversed on the way to other towns and dungeons, and then never used again. Sure, I'd try to scum the occasional blue mage on a high level water monster, but otherwise I had no real use for the wilderness.

Perhaps that's changed and it's now actually worth exploring...

Thanks for the reply.

[chris]

Um, major problem.

I found a whip of Slay Giant that was permanently cursed.

I found this by wielding it.

Is this a bug, or a feature designed to prevent anyone from ever using anything un-id'd ever again?

You should never wield an un-id'd item or quaff an un-id'd potion ever. That's nothing new as the item could be a permacursed artifact or the potion could be death, both of these options having been around forever. So at the very least, you should be waiting for pseudo-id. At that point, never ever wield a {cursed} item without *identifying* it (This is new).

That being said, I could be persuaded to remove perma-curse from ego items. (It's always been around for artifacts.) Or at the very least, I could put a power threshold so that only very powerful cursed items have an appreciable chance of being permacursed.

You can "remove" permacursed items with a scroll of mundanity (which destroys the object as well). But these are a bit rare.

Edit: One other gripe, while I'm here. Escaping from bad situations in the wilderness is now all but impossible. An infinitely scrolling wilderness is a nice idea, and perhaps more realistic, but in practice, I feel like it's more of a headache then it's worth. Is anyone aware of positive features of it? Perhaps if I can find a bright side to look on, I'll be happier about it =P

Well, the old wilderness edges were rather scumable. Simply move to the edge and then wiggle back and forth until a desirable monster spawns to fight. It's rather silly this way and Hengband dealt with it by making the Wilderness an annoyance only feature (i.e., huge experience reduction and crappy drops).

To escape trouble in the wilderness, all you generally need is ?Teleport. Also, it is somewhat prudent to grab a few early experience levels before leaving the proximity of Outpost as the walk (say) to the Orc caves might be risky for a newborn player. Usually CL10 is enough to handle the wilderness just fine. Stay on the roads and try to travel during the day. If ambushed, teleport usually lands you someplace safe.

So, the bright side of the new wilderness is:
* Player now gets full experience from any monster slain.
* Player now gets drops at the current danger level.
* There are a few random wilderness encounters (very few at the moment ... I'll be adding more later).

[Avenger]

Um, major problem.

I found a whip of Slay Giant that was permanently cursed.

I found this by wielding it.

Is this a bug, or a feature designed to prevent anyone from ever using anything un-id'd ever again?

Dump is attached, though it's rather lacking in detail about the weapon - I tried a dump while playing, noticed it lacked information and assumed that was designed to avoid spoiling stuff for still active characters, and decided to suicide in the ocean, since there's no point playing with a permacursed garbage weapon. The death dump isn't much more informative, though =\

Edit: One other gripe, while I'm here. Escaping from bad situations in the wilderness is now all but impossible. An infinitely scrolling wilderness is a nice idea, and perhaps more realistic, but in practice, I feel like it's more of a headache then it's worth. Is anyone aware of positive features of it? Perhaps if I can find a bright side to look on, I'll be happier about it =P

[HugoVirtuoso]

>Magical spells from magical creatures isn't.

*Spoiler*
Not only that, use of player racial abilities (via 'U' command) isn't banned in Telmora's Arena either.

[Arjen]

Keep coming up with more questions, wondered if there was a more appropriate place to ask them than spamming this thread :=)

Such as, e.g., "Can you die in the Arena?". I guess YES is the answer, but since there is no info on the Arena anywhere (AFAIK), I am not 100% sure. I have been ploughing through monsters with my highly useful possessed Giant Tarantula, but after a Dark Elven Lord did in fact use magic when it is supposedly banned (or is it just the player who cannot use magic?) I decided to leave off monster bashing until I was sure that all combat was to the death.

As said, I need a FAQ - or would be happy to start/run one.

Ill answer some, can you die? YES! You even will loose fame and will be kicked out of the arena. (you more likely fainted instead of actually dieing). So no permanent death.

The use of magic devices/potions/activations/scrolls is banned in arena. Magic spells from magical creatures isnt.