Halls of Mist is here!

[Scatha]

The Ladder doesn't seem to have custom fields. Do you think it would be a good idea to put score in the "experience" field? When the order is"best first", the experience field is what counts.

I think it's fairly easy for pav to put a score column in the ladder for the variant. That's how Sil does it, at least.

[Derakon]

...yeah, that works. Why not?

[Mikko Lehtinen]

You've won and are in the post-game; I don't think pushing you to the max level automatically is a huge deal. But if experience is score, what's to stop players from continuing to play after winning just to rack up more points, even though presumably the challenge of the game is now gone?

Just stop giving experience after winning?

[Derakon]

When you kill The Duke, you get lots of bonus experience points for completing your mission quickly, and may well rise to level 50. Does that bother anyone?

You've won and are in the post-game; I don't think pushing you to the max level automatically is a huge deal. But if experience is score, what's to stop players from continuing to play after winning just to rack up more points, even though presumably the challenge of the game is now gone?

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I'm probably going to make score equal to experience points.

When you kill The Duke, you get lots of bonus experience points for completing your mission quickly, and may well rise to level 50. Does that bother anyone?

That's the easiest way to make the Ladder behave with Halls of Mist.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I just added Score to the character sheet.

It would be nice to have the Ladder ordered by the score. It's supposed to reflect your true skill. For example, winners who have low minimum depth have the best score.

The Ladder doesn't seem to have custom fields. Do you think it would be a good idea to put score in the "experience" field? When the order is"best first", the experience field is what counts.

Here's how score is calculated:

/*
 * Hack -- Calculates the total number of points earned
 */
long total_points(void)
{
	int p = (p_ptr->max_exp + (100 * p_ptr->max_depth));
	if (adult_easy_mode) p /= 4;
	if (adult_nightmare_mode) p *= 3;

	/* Winners get a bonus for low minimum depth. */
	float multiplier;
	if (p_ptr->total_winner)
	{
		multiplier = ((58-p_ptr->min_depth)*(58-p_ptr->min_depth));
	}
	else multiplier = 100;

	/* A little hack to get around the integers. */
	p = (p*multiplier)/100;
	return p;
}

(Edited the code, changed 60 to 58. I had forgotten to modify scoring when I changed The Duke's level to 48.)

[buzzkill]

Here's a random thought on templars unrelated to my recent rant. I found that my templar, because of his poverty vow, was the most money grubbing, greedy character I've ever played. I would risk my life to secure a few extra GP, which kind of breaks flavor.

Here's my thought. Keep things as they are now, you may pick up GP and keep 1/3 of it. Additionally, if you avoid collecting any of the GP on a given level (GP starting level <= GP leaving level), they you receive a divine bounty equal to 2/3 of the discovered GP you didn't pick up, upon either a) taking a down staircase or b) clearing (killing everything on) the level.

[HallucinationMushroom]

If you nix free resting, instead of making resting a proficiency, could you just boost the power of recover to 100% restoration, and then make them occur at 5, 10, 15, 20, etc...? Restore is pretty useless to my warriors at the moment, as all they seem to do is spare me a ccw here or there. And, this might offset the pain of no hp recover over time, but I'd rather have free rest. It would keep the game going on a good pace, at least, though I don't find resting boring or particularly time consuming since I just hit Shift+r and the healing occurs instantly.

I don't know if other classes/races get recover, but removing resting is really going to hurt warriors. I can't afford to buy the plethora of hp restore potions to gut the levels proper. All I do is whine at your game, so apologies. I really do enjoy it. I most appreciate the removal of food and the ability to clear levels forever.

[ekolis]

Making resting a proficiency would work, as long as you bumped up the characters' mana pool significantly, and maybe also gave a free HP/MP refill on changing dungeon levels. Though you would also want to make normal time passage not restore HP/MP, otherwise you'd wind up with people pressing 5 repeatedly or skulking about the corridors back and forth to restore HP/MP... :P

[Starhawk]

Oh, and also -- got stuck in a room with no exits this morning.

Screen dump is attached.

[Starhawk]

As a counterpoint, I haven't gotten a mage to survive past level 5 yet. This game is effing hard. I love the new dungeon features and what's been done with combat, but UGH! the poor starting stats, poor item drops, and general weakness of every character is making this game darn near impossible.

taking away my ability to rest for hp in a safe place will probably make me delete the game and go back to vanilla. it's the only thing keeping my poor little rogues upright.

[buzzkill]

Are you plunging down three levels at a time?

No, I'm not. Like I said in that last paragraph, I feel that going deeper will only lead to even more grinding for mana. I've been pretty much clearing levels. Not diving because grinding is necessary at current depth.

Maybe this is the typical mage experience. I don't play pure mages very often. With my warrior type, I didn't rest unless it became absolutely necessary to do so, as I could still kill things even while with half or quarter HP, and had to rely on expensive consumables (or limited lore) for escape and emergency healing. BTW, limited GP/no selling in Mist seems to work well in limiting the availability of consumables.

Mages have nearly unlimited escapes, both phase and teleport are cheap on mana, and they can't kill stuff without enough mana, so resting becomes necessary, and it's convenient. That's bad/boring combination.

Roll yourself up a mage and rush forth recklessly and see what you think. I portal, phase and teleport all over the place. Engage enemies until I run out of mana (zero mana), then either win the battle and rest, or run until I regenerate enough mana to escape, then rest and repeat. It doesn't sound boring as I type it, but it is once you realize that this stupidity is actually a winning combination. Try it for yourself.

Posted partial dump here JIC.

  [Halls of Mist 1.2.1 Character Dump]

 Name   Jome Oore     Level        16/16           CB  Base  RB  EB  Stat
 Sex    Male          Cur Exp       7563     STR: (-3)   8   +1  +0    9
 Race   Vargr         Max Exp       7563     MEM: (+2)  16   +1  +0   17
 Class  Mage          Cur Depth       15     WIS: (+0)   8   +1  +0    9
 Title  Illusionist   Min Depth       15     DEX: (+1)  13   +1  +0   14
 Deity  None          Gold           672     CON: (-1)  10   +1  +0   11
                                             PRE: (+2)  12   +0  +0   12
 Wounds       Grace   Infra    0 squares
 Hits     115 / 115   Spells   8 squares
 Mana      34 /  34
 Lore       0 /   1   Burden     70.3/84                Fighting        9 (+1)
 Reserves   1 /   1   Armor       [9,+6]                Shooting        5 (+1)
                      Blows       3/turn                Throwing        7 (+1)
                      Melee Damage   1d7                Magic Device       50%
                      Shots       1/turn                Saving Throw       50%
                      Thrown Damage   1*
                                                        Stealth           Good
 You come from a litter of five. Your parents were      Perception         45%
 both hunters. Your eyes are yellow, and your fur is    Jumping            60%
 brown.                                                 Alchemy            68%
                                                        Navigation         60%

  [Resists & Abilities]

  No  Blind:..............  Telepathy:..............      Speed:..............
  Free Actn:..............  See Invis:..............       Mana:..............
  Hold Life:..............  Invisible:..............     Health:..............
    Bravery:..............       Luck:..............   Spl. Dur:..............
  No Dsease:..............    Stealth:..............   Spl. Dam:..............
    No Stun:..............    Jumping:..............   Spl. Inf:..............
  No Poison:..............   Percptn.:..............      Taint:..............
     No Cut:..............  Infra-vsn:..............    Disrupt:..............
    No Conf:..............     Ambush:..............  Drn Items:..............
      Regen:..............      Blows:..............    Drn Exp:..............
  Fthr Fall:..............      Range:..............   Teleport:..............
      Light:.....*........  Mgt Throw:..............  Aggravate:..............

  Acid :45% ...+........+.  Dises:9%  ............+.  Nethr:8%  ............+.
  Elec :43% ...+........+.  Light:6%  ............+.  Chaos:6%  ............+.
  Fire :36% .....+......+.  Dark :6%  ............+.
  Cold :42% .....+......+.  Sound:3%  ............+.
  Water:6%  ............+.  Shard:6%  ............+.
  Poisn:9%  ............+.  Nexus:8%  ............+.
            abcdefghijkl@*            abcdefghijkl@*            abcdefghijkl@*
            \} = ~ ()] ]              \} = ~ ()] ]              \} = ~ ()] ]



  [Character Equipment]

a) a Vargr Quarterstaff (+0, 1d7)
b) a Grippli Bow (+0, x4, 7)
c) (nothing)
d) a Ring of Resist Acid and Electricity
e) (nothing)
f) a Torch of Resist Fire and Cold <3352>
g) (nothing)
h) a Fur Cloak [2,+3]
i) a Small Leather Shield [2,+0]
j) a Metal Cap [2,+2]
k) (nothing)
l) a Pair of Spiked Leather Boots [3,+0]

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I could also limit the number of rests per dungeon level by making it a (p)roficiency.

You are right, limiting resting somehow would add strategic depth.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Are you plunging down three levels at a time?

If resting for hp works but resting for mana doesn't, I could steal Ironband's mana.

[buzzkill]

Boring!

My second game of Mist played entirely different from my first, and not in a good way. While my templar struggled, earning every bit of dungeon and nearly died on every level (and was a hell of a lot of fun to play), my current mage, the supposedly fragile class, is simply breezing through the dungeon, despite intentionally completely reckless gameplay, and what are probably 'average' mage stats.

The problem, as I see it, is that resting is too easy. Once a corner of the dungeon is clear, one simply needs to retreat there for a 100% chance of undisturbed rest, and even that's not necessary. Often any empty room will make a suitable place to rest undisturbed. I believe this is thanks to the rewritten dungeon generation that seems to often connect distant places with long corridors (and no spawning).

Although this character is arguably more exciting on paper than my previous, having found things like altars, and circles frequently (and even an ego or two), It's not much fun to play. It goes something like this... rest, pelt enemies with spells, retreat and repeat if necessary, gather loot, repeat. If you eliminate the rest, then everything falls apart and the game becomes unplayable. Mages gotta have mana.

I guess my point is that torches (as a timer) don't provide an effective incentive to not to waste turns resting. Resting makes for boring play. Not resting results in inability to kill anything, and possible death. Escape is still manageable even with next to no mana.

I realize the game will get harder. Enemies will get both harder to kill and more deadly, but I don't that will help much. It will simply shift from survive no matter what you stupid decisions you make, to die no matter what you do unless you rest even more. I can't take this character seriously, don't care whether he lives or dies, don't even care to play it anymore except as a novelty to see how much deeper he can go while I just mash the keyboard.

To make things worse, up to this point he's relied almost entirely on his own mana. No substantial amount of consumables or items (or blessings) aiding his progress, else things would be even easier.