Variant writing.. quickstart guide? Also, Hengband variant suggestions?

[konijn_]

Hm, I can't seem to get spacing right... is there a character for "tab" or "space" that I don't know about?

You can select the text and then click the # icon ( code ) which will preserve the spacing and tabs.

[dzhang]

Any thoughts on the spells in the Wild or Order school? Too overpowered? Too underpowered? Also, taking suggestions for what to fill the remaining slots with (there should be 8 spells in each book). General guideline is that Order can have no variance and should have no healing, while Wild should have huge variance.

[dzhang]

***************
Order School:
***************

Description: The Lords of Amber, after their repeated battles against the Chaos Lords, have learned to cultivate their own strengths against Chaos. By enforcing a disciplined approach to the arcane arts, one can tap a wide variety of effects, both constructive and destructive. (Utility and Blasting; notably no Teleport)

Game rules: No spells have variable effects. Failing to cast a spell does not consume SP. Cannot be selected by Evil Priest. Cannot be selected with Wild (even by Mage or Factotum). When wielding a crystalline weapon, spell failure rates are reduced by 5%.

Spells:

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Book 1: Initiates of Discipline
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Slow Metabolism: Grants Slow Digestion for 100 turns
Crystalline Shard: fire a bolt of shards. Damage is 6+X*0.4
Sleep Monster: As standard spell
Detect Doors and Stairs: As standard spell
Light Area: As standard spell
Bless: As standard spell, except for 15 turns
Trap and Door Destruction: As standard spell
Regeneration: As standard spell, except for 120 turns

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Book 2: Entropic Minimizations
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Detect Objects: As standard spell
Satisfy Hunger: As standard spell
Beam of the Unicorn: Fires a beam of Light, doing 15 + X * 0.6 damage with range (X/8)+3.
Offensive Matrix: Grants Heroism (+10 to hit) for 30 turns, heals 10 HP.
Defensive Matrix: Grants Crystal Skin (+20 AC) for 40 turns
Cure: As standard spell (with no healing)
Magic Mapping: As standard spell


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Book 3: Crystalline Evocations
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Crystal Blast: Ball of radius 5 centered on you, does ((75+X) *2) points of shard damage at center (doesn't damage you)
Identify: As standard spell
Order Branding: Brands a non-ego weapon with Crystalline
Remove Curse: As standard spell
Stone to Mud: As standard spell
Shard Storm: Ball of radius 4, does (100 + level * 2) of shard damage.

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Book 4: Moments of Perfect Order
--------------------------------------

Refresh Mind: Level 30, 1SP, 40% Fail. Regain 5 + X/5 SP.
Refresh Body: As spell "Restoration."
Dimension Door: As standard spell, except with no hidden "random teleport" clause. If your target position is illegal (i.e. occupied or on a vault square), the spell simply fails.
Soul Strike: Do damage = 2 * CurrentHP, take damage = CurrentHP / 4. Radius 0 ball that cannot be resisted.
Summon Angels: Summons angels as following chart. They are always friendly.
Level Effect
0-35 1 Angel
36-40 1 Angel + 1 Archangel
41-43 1 Angel + 1 Archangel + 1 Archon
44-45 1 Archangel + 1 Archon + 1 Planetar
46-47 2 Planetars
48-49 1 Planetars + 1 Solar
50 2 Solars

[dzhang]

Entro also made the Serpent more difficult by giving her the same blood curse trigger the chemist has if you attack her with less than level50. If anything, I'd prefer that to be the other way around.

Hm, that's a pretty good idea! Have some monsters whose can access more abilities if you're higher level... or maybe just increase the chances of casting at higher levels.

[Matthias]

Entro also made the Serpent more difficult by giving her the same blood curse trigger the chemist has if you attack her with less than level50. If anything, I'd prefer that to be the other way around.

Also noticed a minor bug yesterday: If you have confirm destruction off for cursed items, it will also destroy wanted corpses without confirmation. Of course that one is easy to conquer in the autodestroyer.

oh and I would definitely play any Heng upgrade you throw at me if time allows it

[chris]

Oh, do you have a copy of the original 1.7.0 source? Or should I work off your artifactless-variant code? (I assume you commented things out, rather than remove?) It shouldn't be too hard to make "Artifactless" a birth option..

You can get the latest 1.70 source code here:

http://cvs.sourceforge.jp/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/hengband.tar.gz?view=tar

I wouldn't start with the artifactless stuff I did, since I don't even remember what I changed. An unsuspecting user in Preserve Mode off would wonder why they were so unlucky!!!

--Chris

[konijn_]

Haha.. go ahead! Maybe if you implement enough of these changes I won't need to do any coding :-P

Well, I wont do the race/class things They do not really fit. I like the concepts but it would need a different name.

The problem with the "Chaos" school is that despite the name, the effects are actually quite low-variance (such as Mana Storm for 500 damage). So maybe the Chaos school should be renamed the "Force" school or "Mana" school or something.

Maybe I might adapt the Chaos school spells to some of your Wild Magic spells. I am not too happy with the Chaos school as it is now anyway.

<Snip>

That might be pretty useful, the diff's of Heng and Zangband. Wait, is your Hellband variant also based off Hengband? (I'm ashamed to admit I haven't tried it yet..)

Hellband comes from Zangband/Cthangband, a fair amount of code should be the same since Hengband comes from Zangband as well. ( Hellband has all the virtues already removed by the way

I'm not too excited to continue from Entroband, because from past Psych courses, I know that people really like to bemoan nerfing things they're used to.. I'm going to have to power down a lot of the new artifacts in Entroband if I do continue with it. The change list, as far as I can tell, are mostly limited to artifact changes, The Chemist, and reseting of dungeon start depths. Is there any particular feature of Entroband that you like? It might be easier just to recode it...

You know more about this than me. If you dont really like a lot in Entroband, then by all means start a new Variant from Hengband.

Cheers,
Dave

T.

[Nick]

Spells. This is an idea I've had for a while ... not sure if any other variants have done this. Spell books should initially be empty. You gain spells in scroll form, and scribe them in your book or books. You can only carry a limited number of spell books, and each book has a limited number of slots, so your spells available are limited. And you need to find the good spells in the dungeon. Maybe you start with a Scroll of Magic Missle to get things going ...

Frazband, possibly?

[dzhang]

Hm, I can't seem to get spacing right... is there a character for "tab" or "space" that I don't know about?

[dzhang]

Preliminary thoughts on

***************
Wild School:
***************

Description: The Lords of Chaos, outraged at the ascension of Merlin, have conspired to embrace the primal chaos existent within each of them, and to forge that entropy into powerful, if unreliable weapons.

Game Rules: Wild spells consume a random amount of SP, distributed linearly between 0 and the spell's cost (costs are accordingly made approx. double normal). Failure rate is computed as 0.9*a+0.05, where a is the failure rate computed by INT and level (thus, always 5&#37; chance of success, 5% chance of failure). Cannot be selected by Good Priest. Cannot be selected with Order, even by a Mage or Factotum. When wielding a Chaotic weapon, spell failures are reduced by 5%.

Define x = character level.

Spells:

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Book 1: Uncertainty Principles
--------------------------------------

Wildstrike: Level 1, 2 SP, Fail rate 20%. Fire a bolt of (acid, fire, cold, lightning, or poison) for 1d(18+x*1.2) damage.



Wild Teleport: Level 6, 10 SP, Fail Rate 40%. With 1/3 probability, you teleport (x/5) squares. With 1/3 probability, you teleport (x) squares. With 1/3 probability, you teleport (5x) squares.

Uncertain Mind: Level 8, 12 SP, Fail rate 20%.
Roll d5 and consult the following table
1 Bless for 1d40 turns
2 Heroism for 1d60 turns
3 See Invisibility for 1d50 turns
4 Berserk for 1d60 turns
5 Fear (self) for 1d20 turns

Random Regrowth: Level 9, 15 SP, Fail Rate 25%. Heals 1d(20+2x/5) damage

Wonder: Level 10, 20 SP, Fail Rate 50%. Similar effect as activating Wand of Wonder (but different from the Chaos spell and wand).
Roll 1d20, Lookup effect on following table
1 Clone Monster
2 Haste Monster
3 Heal Monster (1d40)
4 Polymorph Monster
5-7 Light area
8-10 Confuse Monster
11-13 Wildstrike (1d54 bolt of acid, fire, cold, lightning, or poison)
14-16 Trap/Door Destruction
17-18 Teleport Other
19 Greater Wildstrike (1d160 ball of acid, fire, cold, lightning, poison, light, or dark with radius 1d(x/7)-1).
20 Detection

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Book 2: Embracing Entropy
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Confusion Blast: Level 15, __ SP, Fail rate __%. 1/3 chance of Confuse target, 1/3 chance of beam of confusion, 1/3 chance of ball of confusion (radius 1d4).

Random Deflector: Level 20, 35 SP, Fail rate 50%. Gives Reflection for 1d50 rounds

Greater Wonder:

Greater Wildstrike: Level 25, SP 30, Fail Rate 50%. Fires a ball of (acid, fire, cold, lightning, poison, light, or dark) with damage 1d(100+2x) and radius (1d(x/7)-1).

Recharge: As standard spell

Chaotic Surge: 50% chance of +10 speed each round for 1d(5x+50) turns.

Wild Terrain: Earthquake with radius 1d15

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Book 3: Maxwell's Demonslayers
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Wild Position: For 1d(2x/5) turns, the player teleports with range (1d20) at the beginning of each turn (this does not consume his move).

Perilous Lore: Identifies the target item. If 1d20 > X / 7 + 10, then player's INT is drained. If 1d20 = 20, then the item is destroyed, unless it's an artifact.

Uncertain Healing: Level 35, 70 SP, Fail Rate 75%. Heals max{300, 1d(player HP / 2)}.

Dragon's Breath: Breath deals 1d(current HP) damage to cone, of a random element

Kaleidoscopic Doom: 1d50 damage from every element (fire, cold, lightning, acid, poison, light, dark, sound, shard, nether, nexus, chaos, disenchant), radius 2. (Expected damage 325)

Chaotic Mind: Immediately cures hallucination. 50% chance of ESP each round for 1d200 rounds. Cannot be hallucinated for the duration.

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Book 4: The Anti-Pattern
--------------------------------------

Volatile Branding: Brands non-ego weapon with (Volatile)

Wild Negation: Level 35, SP 70, 75% Fail. Roll 1d25 and consult the following table
1 No Effect
2-5 Dispel Magic on yourself
6-24 Dispel Magic on your target
25 Dispel Magic on yourself AND your target

Wild Defense: Level 46, 150 SP, 70% Fail. First, all temporary effects affecting player (both positive and negative) are stripped. Thn, various effects are applied, with probabilities as listed below. Every effect is calculate individually (meaning one can get all of them, or none of them).
Effect Prob. Duration
---------------------------------------------------------
Blessing 90%
Heroism 80%
Stone Skin 70%
Resistance 60%
Haste 50%
Magic Resistance 40%
Heal 300HP 30% N/A
Wall of Stone 20% N/A
Wraithform 10%


Wild Offense: Level 48, 200 SP, 75% Fail. Various effects, with probabilities as listed below. Every effect is calculate individually (meaning one can get all of them, or none of them). (Expected damage 383+410=793 for level 50)
Effect Prob. Damage (x = level)
---------------------------------------------------------
Frost Bolt 90% 1d(20+3x) cold
Fire Bolt 80% 1d(30+3x) fire
Mana Burst 70% 1d(20+3x) mana, radius 2; [1d(20+4x) if Mage, High-Mage, or Sorc]
Fireball 60% 1d(100+2x) fire, radius 2
Dispel Evil 50% 1d(4x) holy, all evil in view
Wave of Power 40% 1d(300) force, all in view
Mana Storm 30% 1d(600+8x) mana, radius 4
Wrath of God 20% 1d30 Disintegrate balls (radius 2) near target, each does 1d(50+6x) disintegrate damage
Soul Strike 10% 1d(4 * player HP) damage to single target, no save; player HP reduced by 1d(player HP / 2).

[dzhang]

Well,

I can tell you already I will be stealing stuff

Haha.. go ahead! Maybe if you implement enough of these changes I won't need to do any coding :-P

-1- Order school ( Wild magic sounds a lot like the Chaos school to me )

The problem with the "Chaos" school is that despite the name, the effects are actually quite low-variance (such as Mana Storm for 500 damage). So maybe the Chaos school should be renamed the "Force" school or "Mana" school or something.

The whole idea of Wild Magic is that it will be very powerful (probably higher expected damages than many others), but very, very unreliable. I'll post the spells I have in mind in a bit and you can see if it's worth incorporating..

I can send you the diff's for Hengband which comes from Zangband, which should give you some indication on where to change stuff.

Let me also say that you should continue with Entro, it would be sad to see the maintenance of that fall by the wayside.

Cheers,
T.

That might be pretty useful, the diff's of Heng and Zangband. Wait, is your Hellband variant also based off Hengband? (I'm ashamed to admit I haven't tried it yet..)

I'm not too excited to continue from Entroband, because from past Psych courses, I know that people really like to bemoan nerfing things they're used to.. I'm going to have to power down a lot of the new artifacts in Entroband if I do continue with it. The change list, as far as I can tell, are mostly limited to artifact changes, The Chemist, and reseting of dungeon start depths. Is there any particular feature of Entroband that you like? It might be easier just to recode it...

Cheers,

Dave

[konijn_]

Well,

I can tell you already I will be stealing stuff

-1- Order school ( Wild magic sounds a lot like the Chaos school to me )
-2- Crystalline ego ( but maybe res light instead of res chaos or even bounce back light attacks, like it gets mirrored on the crystal or something )
-3- Ring of evocation ( max up to like +3 or +4 though )
-4- Restricting mutation count is a great idea, the UI cannot handly gracefully more than 23/25 mutations anyway
-5- All mutations except possibly lost in thought, it seems too zany

I can send you the diff's for Hengband which comes from Zangband, which should give you some indication on where to change stuff.

Let me also say that you should continue with Entro, it would be sad to see the maintenance of that fall by the wayside.

Cheers,
T.

[dzhang]

Thanks for your comments!

[1] Add more artifacts, or change existing ones. Especially needed are more artifact shooters. I'm tired of playing Archers because they always play the same (get Bard, make seeker arrows, etc). Careful about game balance though. I think Brian inadvertantly made a much easier variant to win with in Entroband, as melee got a nice pump. Melee is strong enough in Hengband (maybe too strong?)
--Chris

I had the same feeling about melee vs. magic, which is why I was adding in the Ring of Evocation. My general feeling towards the problem is that what's done is done, and I don't want to water down existing artifacts, so the way to go is to make the game deeper. I.e. after you kill the Serpent, you next have to kill Hades at dlvl 120, who can summon Zombified Serpents of Chaos.

[2] Make Old Castle and Cloning Pits rewards randomized. Old Castle should still be class specific, but should choose from several arts rather than just hard coding one. Come on, does every single solitary player have to win with Shiva's boots?
--Chris

Some of us find Feanor occasionally.. but good point, something I hadn't really thought about before. (Again, points to the need for more artifacts, I guess..)

Actually, I don't know where I read this before, but someone had the idea of having an extra store selling unidentified items (including small chance for artifacts). That appeals to me, though game balance will probably be an issue. Maybe make the price increase with the number of items you've bought from there.

[3] Spells. This is an idea I've had for a while ... not sure if any other variants have done this. Spell books should initially be empty. You gain spells in scroll form, and scribe them in your book or books. You can only carry a limited number of spell books, and each book has a limited number of slots, so your spells available are limited. And you need to find the good spells in the dungeon. Maybe you start with a Scroll of Magic Missle to get things going ...
--Chris

This sounds like a good idea for a new class (rather than retrofitting all the existing classes). Kind of like the Magic-Eater, except with Scrolls, and limited in your choice of what spells to acquire. Probably will need a few more offensive scrolls. So basically a mix of the Magic-Eater and the Imitator.

Not sure how to balance things with ?oArtifactCreation, ?oAcquirement, etc..

[4] Fix the Tower quest. Very abusable ... though probably only you and I know how to do it ;-)

As far as the code goes, I don't really know it that well. For the artifactless changes I made, I made heavy use of grep and basically hunted around until I found all the places that needed changing. Adding new classes and items is hard, I think. Adding new artifacts is easy, since those can be added in a_info.txt.

Also, I'd be more than happy to playtest for you ...
--Chris

I'm still mostly in the "jotting down ideas" stage at the moment, and probably won't get to actual coding for two weeks (I have my PhD candidacy exam then..). Your help coding and debugging would be appreciated! (Though I'm sure that's not what you signed up for :-P)

Oh, do you have a copy of the original 1.7.0 source? Or should I work off your artifactless-variant code? (I assume you commented things out, rather than remove?) It shouldn't be too hard to make "Artifactless" a birth option..

[Djabanete]

I'd play(test).

[chris]

Hengband Variant Suggestions

Hey Dave,

I strongly encourage you to work really hard to make a awesome Hengband based variant ;-) I like many of your ideas, and will even offer some of my own:

[1] Add more artifacts, or change existing ones. Especially needed are more artifact shooters. I'm tired of playing Archers because they always play the same (get Bard, make seeker arrows, etc). Careful about game balance though. I think Brian inadvertantly made a much easier variant to win with in Entroband, as melee got a nice pump. Melee is strong enough in Hengband (maybe too strong?)

[2] Make Old Castle and Cloning Pits rewards randomized. Old Castle should still be class specific, but should choose from several arts rather than just hard coding one. Come on, does every single solitary player have to win with Shiva's boots?

[3] Spells. This is an idea I've had for a while ... not sure if any other variants have done this. Spell books should initially be empty. You gain spells in scroll form, and scribe them in your book or books. You can only carry a limited number of spell books, and each book has a limited number of slots, so your spells available are limited. And you need to find the good spells in the dungeon. Maybe you start with a Scroll of Magic Missle to get things going ...

[4] Fix the Tower quest. Very abusable ... though probably only you and I know how to do it ;-)

As far as the code goes, I don't really know it that well. For the artifactless changes I made, I made heavy use of grep and basically hunted around until I found all the places that needed changing. Adding new classes and items is hard, I think. Adding new artifacts is easy, since those can be added in a_info.txt.

Also, I'd be more than happy to playtest for you ...

--Chris