NPP thoughts

[nppangband]

I just had some creeping coins drop a Metal Cap of Teleportation [3, -8] {cursed}. I'm guessing this passed the "great" check and then rolled a bad ego? I also got a Potion of Resist Heat; not sure how that works into things.

It shouldn't work that way, but I have seen an occasional potion as well. It is supposed to be equipment/weapons, no worse than average. I have reviewed the code, and I don't see any reason for this to happen. I will keep looking.

Regarding my quest for Ufthak, if he'd had an escort he would have been miles more difficult to take down; I don't think I could have done it. As it was he was merely quite difficult. If you're going to ensure that uniques always get their escorts, please also ensure that escorted uniques don't show up quite so early in quests. The orc uniques are dangerous enough when they're at their appropriate depths.

It should get the weakest possible escort, probably just a couple snagas. It is odd that you got a quest for him that early. that's one of the hardest possible quests you could have gotten at that depth.

I was able to recognize that creeping coins that I'd detected earlier were mimics when I got within 2 squares of them, even though there was a wall between me and them (get a creeping coins pit, detect them, then walk along the moat; might have to light the pit up first).

In NPP 060 mimics are literally going to be objects...until they change into a monster and attack you.

You appear to have changed the stealing system; even with 18/150 DEX master thieves are able to take my stuff. Annoying.

It is slightly different. They only have a 10% chance at 18/150, and zero chance at 18.180. I must admit I have no idea when and why this was changed. Maybe I will change it back.

Magic Mapping staves seem like a poor deal compared to scrolls. 16 scrolls for 832AU, 1 staff with 7 charges for 1302AU.

In general scrolls are cheaper than staves per use. I guess the advantage of staves is that they can be recharged. Maybe this is only noticable because there are so many magic mapping scrolls in NPP stores. I will think about this one....

EDIT: annoyance: monsters can see (and breathe) through fire, but I can't.

You are shooting through the fire. Only you can't see it. Line of sight and line of fire are calculated differently in NPP. There is an object memory, much like monster memory, that can tell you all you know about the terrains.

EDIT 2: I'm pretty sure Vanilla recently put some fairly strict limits on monster breeding. Could you add something similar? It's incredibly aggravating to have a louse explosion take over a quest level; the level is basically impossible to navigate through no fault of your own, meaning that you either get lucky or are forced to abandon a quest. What fun is this? Yes, sometimes you can contain them, and usually you're lucky enough to get to them before they wake up, but not always.

I didn't see much different between NPP and Vanilla as of 3.1.2v2. Once I finalize NPP 0.5.1 I am going to take a look at the latest vanilla. Maybe it is in there. I am constantly going to be adding vanilla features, in order of desirability. At the pace they are coding, I doubt I will ever catch up to them again.

EDIT 3: this might be one of those "only on OSX" things, but you'd better check. If I escape out of the service to restore or raise a stat, then when I get back into the town the map's blanked out and I can't see, even if I have a light source. Very bizarre. Goes away if I reload the save though.

It was a bug, and it is fixed. Thanks.

EDIT 4: okay, you miiiiight want to reconsider your stair-placement algorithm:

Wow. Looks like a mage just found a copy of Mordenkainen's Escapes, and was practicing the create stairs spell.

NPP puts a high priprity on making the stairs in the most remote part of the dungeon possible, trying to make sure the player almost has 1-2 turns before being attacked. Sometimes things like that screenshot happen. I am suprised no stairs were put over there in that corridor on the lft side. Maybe someday I can make it look better, but mostly I want to make sure the player is reasonably safe.

[Derakon]

For a pit/nest quest, 5 random creatures will drop an extra item. That item will have the object generation level increased by 5, will not be cursed, and will not be a junk item.

I just had some creeping coins drop a Metal Cap of Teleportation [3, -8] {cursed}. I'm guessing this passed the "great" check and then rolled a bad ego? I also got a Potion of Resist Heat; not sure how that works into things.

Regarding my quest for Ufthak, if he'd had an escort he would have been miles more difficult to take down; I don't think I could have done it. As it was he was merely quite difficult. If you're going to ensure that uniques always get their escorts, please also ensure that escorted uniques don't show up quite so early in quests. The orc uniques are dangerous enough when they're at their appropriate depths.

I was able to recognize that creeping coins that I'd detected earlier were mimics when I got within 2 squares of them, even though there was a wall between me and them (get a creeping coins pit, detect them, then walk along the moat; might have to light the pit up first).

You appear to have changed the stealing system; even with 18/150 DEX master thieves are able to take my stuff. Annoying.

Magic Mapping staves seem like a poor deal compared to scrolls. 16 scrolls for 832AU, 1 staff with 7 charges for 1302AU.

In your pack: a Heavy Crossbow of Power (x4) (+16,+6) (v). Suggest you add a check for that ego to flip the to-hit and to-dam bonuses if the former is bigger than the latter (and similarly for the "of Accuracy" ego).

And hey, I'm glad my feedback is proving useful!

EDIT: annoyance: monsters can see (and breathe) through fire, but I can't.

EDIT 2: I'm pretty sure Vanilla recently put some fairly strict limits on monster breeding. Could you add something similar? It's incredibly aggravating to have a louse explosion take over a quest level; the level is basically impossible to navigate through no fault of your own, meaning that you either get lucky or are forced to abandon a quest. What fun is this? Yes, sometimes you can contain them, and usually you're lucky enough to get to them before they wake up, but not always.

EDIT 3: this might be one of those "only on OSX" things, but you'd better check. If I escape out of the service to restore or raise a stat, then when I get back into the town the map's blanked out and I can't see, even if I have a light source. Very bizarre. Goes away if I reload the save though.

EDIT 4: okay, you miiiiight want to reconsider your stair-placement algorithm:
Those are the only stairs on the level. Not only is this silly; it also happens commonly if very slightly less compactly in the "pillared" rooms (normal rooms with every other row having every other column be a solid block), which means that all of the stairs on the entire level are in one place. IMO stairs should be more spread-out; if you're going to pack them all together, you might as well just have one staircase and be done with it.

[nppangband]

It'd be interesting if instead of asking for quests by type, you could ask for them by difficulty, with compensating effects on your fame. Then the guild would give you a random quest type while trying to match the difficulty as much as possible.

It used to be this way. You could choose easy, medium, or hard monster quests. But again, there is no good objective criteria for what makes a monster hard. Some monsters are easy if you have the right immunity/resist, or enough speed. Some monsters are easier for some classes, but hard for others. I might bring back the easy, medium, or hard monster quests in NPP 060, if I can come up with a way to quantify what makes a quest easy or hard.

I would like to have a greater variety of quests, so I am always open for suggestions. I think I want to add the choice of adding fixed quests (no down staircases until you finish the quest), and maybe a wilderness quest (completely clear out a wilderness level).

Also, I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but vault quests tend to be pretty easy. Of course it depends on which vault you get, but most are not as dangerous as a pit full of nasties or a themed level. The only problem is you have to be able to bore through rock to deal with them. I like the concept of the vault quest, but it'd be nice if they were beefed up a bit.

Luck plays a big part here. There are 3-4 potential spots for the quest item in the vault, and the monsters holding the quest item are generated up to 10 levels out of depth. But it all depends on what monster is put there. It could be a white harpy, it could be one of the harder uniques. My last character had an ancient blue dragon holding the quest item at 900'.

EDIT 2: if visiting a store identifies items for you (because you now know what their flavors are), you don't reorder your pack automatically.

Good observation. Fixed.

EDIT 3: okay, Ufthak had no escort, so I was able to slowly whittle him down with phase door and bolts. Strange.

I think because he was so out-of-depth none of his escorts could be generated. I changed it so the monster generation level is slowly raised until a suitable escort is found.

EDIT 4: I don't think that the damage calculations for weapons take into account the identification status of your equipment. I had un-ID'd gloves of slaying, and I'm pretty sure that my damage estimates didn't change after IDing them. Also, it'd be nice if the damage calculations included the effects slays like the Vanilla calcs do.

That is a popular request, and I am slowly working towards it. But I want to re-do a couple things in combat at the same time. That is an NPP 0.5.2 item.

EDIT 5: I seem to find an awful lot of cursed rings of Protection. They vastly outnumber the uncursed ones, to the extent that I simply squelch them right off; the cost of burning an ID on one is outweighed by the seemingly overwhelming odds that I get a cursed one, especially since uncursed ones are nothing particularly special.

It is a 50%-50% chance, so that's just a run of bad luck.

EDIT 6: Nobody the Mummy isn't resistant to cold. Not that I mind, since he (she?) was a melee powerhouse and my weapon of choice had a cold brand, but it did seem odd.

Fixed. And again, I greatly appreciate all of your feedback.

[Derakon]

It'd be interesting if instead of asking for quests by type, you could ask for them by difficulty, with compensating effects on your fame. Then the guild would give you a random quest type while trying to match the difficulty as much as possible.

Also, I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but vault quests tend to be pretty easy. Of course it depends on which vault you get, but most are not as dangerous as a pit full of nasties or a themed level. The only problem is you have to be able to bore through rock to deal with them. I like the concept of the vault quest, but it'd be nice if they were beefed up a bit.

EDIT: erk...just got Ufthak as a quest for 250'. 9 dungeon levels out of depth, yikes.

EDIT 2: if visiting a store identifies items for you (because you now know what their flavors are), you don't reorder your pack automatically.

EDIT 3: okay, Ufthak had no escort, so I was able to slowly whittle him down with phase door and bolts. Strange.

EDIT 4: I don't think that the damage calculations for weapons take into account the identification status of your equipment. I had un-ID'd gloves of slaying, and I'm pretty sure that my damage estimates didn't change after IDing them. Also, it'd be nice if the damage calculations included the effects slays like the Vanilla calcs do.

EDIT 5: I seem to find an awful lot of cursed rings of Protection. They vastly outnumber the uncursed ones, to the extent that I simply squelch them right off; the cost of burning an ID on one is outweighed by the seemingly overwhelming odds that I get a cursed one, especially since uncursed ones are nothing particularly special.

EDIT 6: Nobody the Mummy isn't resistant to cold. Not that I mind, since he (she?) was a melee powerhouse and my weapon of choice had a cold brand, but it did seem odd.

[nppangband]

I feel your pain. I just had a promising level 30 human mage get slaughtered at 1600 by a dragon pit quest. I got the worst possible scenario... a tiny level of only two rooms, one of which was the dragon pit. I casted detect then rested to recover my mana. Two dragons enter the corridor, an inertia drake and a power drake. Immediately the inertia drake breathes, followed by the power drake breathing disenchantment.....I never even got a turn....

It seems like fewer quests are available now; it used to be they'd show up every other level, but now I often have to go down 3 levels instead to get a new quest.

This is the way it always was, the next quest was either 2 or three levels from the current max depth. The last couple Betas it was a quest every 2 levels. But that meant the player could pretty much use shafts to go from quest level to quest level, and barely have to deal with the regular dungeon at all, so I switched it back.

I'm also not certain I like how much of a crapshoot quests are in terms of your reputation. The guild can ask you to do things of wildly differing difficulty, but you don't get to know what the quest is until you've accepted it, at which point if you refuse it your reputation gets slaughtered. On the flipside, I don't think you should really be able to cherrypick your quests either...

Yep, you kind of have to be prepared for the worst when you ask for a quest. I do like your suggestion of extra fame points for harder quests. I am going to put that in, but coding the criteria for a hard quest is the challenge. I mean, I know a hard quest when I see one (kill 26 great power wyrms), but quantifying what makes it hard is difficult. Clearly, themed levels, pit/nests where you have to kill Undead, ancient dragons, demons, or humanoids (because of all the grandmaster mystics) are the hardest. But having to kill Smeagol at 100' is also difficult. Or getting a troll themed level at '1250 is practically a suicide mission for a pre-stat gain character. Bill/Bert/Tom will probably be there, and they can throw boulders causing 250-300 hp damage.

[Derakon]

Aaaaagh, killed by a cave dweller nest at 1600'. Ettins are ridiculously sturdy at 1500 hitpoints (and that whole bit where they step back and let the next guy take a whack at me when they're half dead does not help), and storm giants can pump out damage at absurd rates. Both monsters that are dangerous when found alone. In groups, well...

Mind, I would have been in better shape if my only source of see invisible weren't on a ring; I had a bunch of useful rings that would've saved my bacon. Or if I could have found any sources of temporary speed. Only two potions, which went early, and the staff I bought from the black market got dissolved before I ever had a chance to use it.

It seems like fewer quests are available now; it used to be they'd show up every other level, but now I often have to go down 3 levels instead to get a new quest.

I'm also not certain I like how much of a crapshoot quests are in terms of your reputation. The guild can ask you to do things of wildly differing difficulty, but you don't get to know what the quest is until you've accepted it, at which point if you refuse it your reputation gets slaughtered. On the flipside, I don't think you should really be able to cherrypick your quests either...

[nppangband]

Well, fair enough.

* There appears to be a bug where walking out of LOS of monsters does not cause them to stop being drawn. Savefile here; to reproduce, walk one step to the southeast. Note that force-redrawing the screen with ^R causes the monsters to be properly cleared.
* Another weird sight bug: if I walk away from the northern wall in this room, it gets replaced by blackness unless I force a redraw. Savefile.

Strange. This must be compiler or operating system specific. For the first savefile, the trolls dissappear when I move southeast. For the second, the walls remain displayed when I walk to the south or anywhere else in the room.

[nppangband]

I think that the "automatically use if there is only one choice" one is buggy, then; it shouldn't trigger in the situation where the user is getting items off the floor and has just gotten the second-to-last item.

THis is fixed for the next release. Beta-5a had this problem. The game now understands the difference between "one item left" and "only one item on the floor to begin with".

For that matter, "prompt before picking things up" doesn't work right either -- if it's on, then I get a get-item prompt when I walk over items even though I don't have "pick up things by default" turned on.

It works, but the pickup options overlap.

The pickup code attempts to do thingsin this order:

1) Squelch any objects that should be squelched
2) Pick up gold
3) Pick up items that go directly to the quiver.
4) Pick up items that merge with items currently in the backpack, unless they are marked for never_pickup in the squelch menu.
5) Pick up items marked for always_pickup in the squelch menu.
6) If always pickup is on, it tries to pick up everything else, then it stops. (So this supercedes the carry_query_flag).
7) If carry_query_flag is on and always_pickup off, you then get the menu to pickup items. If carry_query_flag and always_pickup are both off, the only way to pickup items is with the g command, or mark them for always_pickup in the squelch menu.
8) Finally, if there are multiple items to be picked up or if the floor_query_flag is on, you get a menu. If there is only one item that can be picked up, and floor_query_flag is off, it automatically picks it up. (Contrary to what I said above, the floor_query_flag also will have you auto-use an item on the floor, for example, if you press 'r' and then '-' to check the floor items, and there is only one scroll on the floor, it is automatically used)

Believe it or not, that's actually much easier to understand than what was there before.

[Derakon]

There are two options with similar names, floor_query_xxx. And I don't have the source in front of me to remember which is which. One of them will automatically, if set to FALSE, use a floor item if there is only one valid choice. The other one will, if set to false, there is only one item on the floor that can be picked up, pick up that item automatically without a prompt if 'g' is pressed.

I think that the "automatically use if there is only one choice" one is buggy, then; it shouldn't trigger in the situation where the user is getting items off the floor and has just gotten the second-to-last item.

For that matter, "prompt before picking things up" doesn't work right either -- if it's on, then I get a get-item prompt when I walk over items even though I don't have "pick up things by default" turned on.

[nppangband]

Ahh. I read "Prompt before using floor items" as meaning "prompt before quaffing/aiming/zapping/firing/etc. floor items", not "prompt before picking up floor items".

EDIT: this does have the slightly annoying property that if there is only one item on the floor when I hit 'g', then I'm prompted to pick it up. It seems I'm cursed to either automatically get items I don't want, or be force to confirm getting items I obviously do want. :\

There are two options with similar names, floor_query_xxx. And I don't have the source in front of me to remember which is which. One of them will automatically, if set to FALSE, use a floor item if there is only one valid choice. The other one will, if set to false, there is only one item on the floor that can be picked up, pick up that item automatically without a prompt if 'g' is pressed.

Yes, I do. I assume that what's going on here is that there's a ring that I'm automatically use-IDing as cursed as soon as I step on it or something.

Probably. In my current game I id'ed a ring of teleportation, and it was automatically destroyed since it was cursed. Now all rings of teleportation are squelched as soon as I step on them, but they don't appear as a purple dot since the object type "ring of teleportation" isn't set to squelch. That isn't quite what I am going for, so I may change it.

But the good news is that if I am down to little problems like that, I can hopefully finalize 0.5.1 soon.

[camlost]

* Since when can Lotho Pimple, who appears in the books to be at most a simple brigand, cast phase door?

Since he murdered your last character who had a stack of them.

[Derakon]

This is the sole function of the floor_query_flag option. When set to false, you will automatically pick up an object when it is the only object on the floor to pick up (although it is slighly broken in BETA-05a). If you set it to true, this won't happen any more.

Ahh. I read "Prompt before using floor items" as meaning "prompt before quaffing/aiming/zapping/firing/etc. floor items", not "prompt before picking up floor items".

EDIT: this does have the slightly annoying property that if there is only one item on the floor when I hit 'g', then I'm prompted to pick it up. It seems I'm cursed to either automatically get items I don't want, or be force to confirm getting items I obviously do want. :\

In the squelch menus, every object in the game can be set to one of 4 different settings:
<snip>

Ah ha! Okay, then this is working as intended; I just didn't realize there was that extra set of options. Interesting.

I noticed that yesterday. I will check into it. Do you have your quality squelch for rings set to squelch cursed?

Yes, I do. I assume that what's going on here is that there's a ring that I'm automatically use-IDing as cursed as soon as I step on it or something.

[nppangband]

* I prefer to not pick up items by default. When I hit 'g' and there's a choice of what to get, I'm prompted with a list. However, it is impossible for me to get all but one item; once there is only one thing left it is automatically picked up. Very annoying.

This is the sole function of the floor_query_flag option. When set to false, you will automatically pick up an object when it is the only object on the floor to pick up (although it is slighly broken in BETA-05a). If you set it to true, this won't happen any more.

* Since when can Lotho Pimple, who appears in the books to be at most a simple brigand, cast phase door?

:::trying to think of a response:::

* I don't automatically pick up spellbooks that match books in my pack any more. "Merge inscriptions when stacking" is on, so there shouldn't be any problem. Certainly, ammo auto-pickup is working, as is scroll auto-pickup...of inscribed scrolls, even!

In the squelch menus, every object in the game can be set to one of 4 different settings:

1) Squelch - always destroy when you walk over them
2) Never pickup - just leave them on the floor when you walk over them, overriding any pickup options you may have in the menus. Intended for things like stat-gain potions after your stats are maxed. You don't want to pick them up, but you might want one if your strength gets drained.
3) Always pickup, overriding any pickup options in the options menus. This is intended for things I would imagine any player would want to automatically pickup throughout the game, such as potions of life.
4) Never squelch - this is the default setting at player birth, and the pickup options in the options menu determine what you pickup and what you leave on the floor.

But the 4 base spellbooks for each realm are the one exception: They are set to never_pickup, mostly because for a starting mage or druid it is annoying to be constantly slowed by the extra 3 pounds from each spell book that is automatically picked up. But if you don't like this, you can go to the squelch menu and set the 4 base spellbooks in your realm to the setting you choose. You can also adjust this setting from the object knowledge menu as well.

Just as a heads-up - I did find a bunch of bugs in the squelch menu last night. Until the next release you are probably better off using the object menu to make changes.

* You appear to have removed the guaranteed nice items from nest quests. Oh, well, they were overpowered anyway.

They are there, just not mearly as many of them. For a pit/nest quest, 5 random creatures will drop an extra item. That item will have the object generation level increased by 5, will not be cursed, and will not be a junk item. There is also a small chance of it being guaranteed good (1 in 5), guaranteed great (one in 10), which means something different in NPP than vanilla, guaranteed good and great (1 in 50, and this has the same meaning as guaranteed great in Vanilla), or a chest (one in 50). You will probably get 1-2 extra nice items per pit/next quest. For a themed level quest, one in 15 monsters have this extra drop, or around 18 creatures on the level. I think you can expect an extra 5-6 good items per level quest, on top of the normal monster drops.

* Something screwy's going on with squelch. Every once in awhile I see a brown ring that disappears when I walk over it. Shouldn't it display as a purple dot?

I noticed that yesterday. I will check into it. Do you have your quality squelch for rings set to squelch cursed?

* There appears to be a bug where walking out of LOS of monsters does not cause them to stop being drawn. Savefile here; to reproduce, walk one step to the southeast. Note that force-redrawing the screen with ^R causes the monsters to be properly cleared.


* Another weird sight bug: if I walk away from the northern wall in this room, it gets replaced by blackness unless I force a redraw. Savefile.

Thanks for the savefiles. I will check into this.

[Derakon]

I hate to say it, but I only put something on the changes file if it is from the previous full released version (NPP 050). All of the little changes in between beta releases don't get mentioned.

Well, fair enough.

* I prefer to not pick up items by default. When I hit 'g' and there's a choice of what to get, I'm prompted with a list. However, it is impossible for me to get all but one item; once there is only one thing left it is automatically picked up. Very annoying.
* Since when can Lotho Pimple, who appears in the books to be at most a simple brigand, cast phase door?
* I don't automatically pick up spellbooks that match books in my pack any more. "Merge inscriptions when stacking" is on, so there shouldn't be any problem. Certainly, ammo auto-pickup is working, as is scroll auto-pickup...of inscribed scrolls, even!
* You appear to have removed the guaranteed nice items from nest quests. Oh, well, they were overpowered anyway.
* There appears to be a bug where walking out of LOS of monsters does not cause them to stop being drawn. Savefile here; to reproduce, walk one step to the southeast. Note that force-redrawing the screen with ^R causes the monsters to be properly cleared.
* Something screwy's going on with squelch. Every once in awhile I see a brown ring that disappears when I walk over it. Shouldn't it display as a purple dot?
* Another weird sight bug: if I walk away from the northern wall in this room, it gets replaced by blackness unless I force a redraw. Savefile.

[nppangband]

Yes, I'm on beta 5a. Thanks for the info about changing how quests work. I can see the logic, but I didn't see that change in the changes file so I figured something was broken. Anyway, once more unto the breach!

I hate to say it, but I only put something on the changes file if it is from the previous full released version (NPP 050). All of the little changes in between beta releases don't get mentioned.

* I took a down staircase (350' -> 400'), and the game actually hung for a couple of seconds, thinking about <i>something</i>. I can only assume that it had to retry dungeon generation a bunch of times. Weird. No quest on the level, by the way.

The NPP dungeons are a little more complicated to generate, due to the complex terrain, small levels, wilderness levels, and other little things. It is usually instant, but sometimes with a little bad luck it can take a second or so to generate an acceptable dungeon.

* Have stat potion rewards been made more common? Previous versions, I expected to get money for my first several quests; this time, I've gotten stat potions. Not that I'm complaining. Half-troll rogues start out with some significant stat deficits...

I made good rewards more common, essentially the lowest reward, along with rewards of gold. A stat potion if the first possible good reward, so they will be a little more common now. It sort of happened by accident, but it has been a good change.

* Magic mapping still maps the entire viewable window.

I missed that one. Thanks. This is fixed.

* Are you sure that digging isn't harder than it is in Vanilla? It took my half-troll rogue, with a strength of 18/50, 196 turns to dig through rubble. Granted he was using a dagger, but I did some digging earlier with a glaive (weight: 19) and it still took ridiculously long to clear rubble.
* A jammed iron door that I tried to break down a dozen times without success...was taken down trivially by a tiger.

Right you are, there was an error. Unintentionally, digging is five times harder in NPP. I will spare you the story, since it is about 10 times longer than it is interesting. If you don't want to wait for my next release, here is the fix:

cmd2.c, (in do_cmd_tunnel_aux), line 1316 reads:

if (p_ptr->state.skills[SKILL_DIGGING] > rand_int(200* j))

By changing that 200 to 40, digging has exactly the same chance of success as in Angband.

More to come; this character's just getting started.

Thanks again for the feedback.