Newbie to Rogue-Like Games

[buzzkill]

As far as the monsters go, the ones that give me grief are red naga (saps strength), rogue (steals gold), and bandit (steals from your backpack).

The other problem monsters so far are anything that multiplies (louses, worm masses, and rats/mice, flies).

Might as well get used to them now, they're not going anywhere.

[dreamician]

So here's a little update.

After playing rogue quite a bit (just about every day) I began to realize that a large amount of what constitutes a decent or successful run is based a lot on luck. Will you find enough food? Will you run into a room packed full of monsters? Will you get a surprise attack while you're trying to rest to recover hp's and will you be able to stop resting in time to handle it before certain death?

And these kinds of questions go on to cover many aspects of the game. So I've set rogue aside and have been playing moria (actually a color-enhanced version of umoria). I really fell in love with it.

There are so many things I like about it. Starting off with basic equipment is a big plus, then being able to purchase equipment and supplies before you head to the dungeon is even better. Well, let's face it, being able to buy things with your gold is a HUGE improvement over rogue.

One very cool feature of the shops is that you can sell stuff to them, and if you sell something you haven't identified, the shop identifies it for you. And that's what I've been doing--I wait until I have a full inventory of mystery items then make my way back to town and sell everything. Now granted I miss out on some good stuff that way, but in the long run, I think id'ing stuff that way is worth it, much better than trying everything you get.

Plus, on the other side of the coin, if you have an item that is counter-productive (like a wand of haste monster) and it's identified, the shop won't buy it. So selling un-identified stuff also gets you at least a little bit of gold for bad items.

And then we have race, class, and stats to play with. I've tried a few different combos. Elf ranger, Elf mage, halfling rogue, half-orc warrior, and plain human paladin. Mage and rogue were extremely difficult for me, especially mage. It came down to A)cast magic missile, B)rest for mana. Repeat. The ranger was also hard. I was doing quite well the warrior, but I was making frequent trips to town for potions and scrolls.

With the paladin, I think I've found a good combo. He's a decent fighter (nearly as good as a warrior) and he has some spells for backup--doesn't have to rely on potions/scrolls so much.

Haggling. Well, at first I thought it was neat, even a little fun. But after getting kicked out of shops a few times for not dropping or lowering my price quickly enough, and having to haggle every time I bought something, I turned it off with the -h option. Now it just goes straight to a final offer, which is roughly half of the original cost. It saves a lot of time and I'm happy with that price.

As far as the monsters go, the ones that give me grief are red naga (saps strength), rogue (steals gold), and bandit (steals from your backpack). The bandit is pretty much number one on my hate list because a couple of times he took my prayer books. So now, when I can afford it, I buy 3 copies of each book. I usually just run from the red naga (zap a wand of confuse monster if I have it, or sleep). But several times that didn't work out, even after running, closing doors behind me, he tracked me down later in the dungeon when I wasn't expecting it. Ugh!

The other problem monsters so far are anything that multiplies (louses, worm masses, and rats/mice, flies). The louses are the biggest threat because they seem to multiply the fastest. The first time I encountered them I died a few times when they surrounded me so fast I couldn't kill a path clear. Now my tactic is: if there's only a few in the room, I can usually kill them before it gets out of hand. If it's more than a few, however, I don't bother, I back out and close doors if I can.

So ya, so far I'm really enjoing moria. I've got a paladin now up to level twelve, and I found a 2-handed claymore (3d6) which I've used a few enchanting scrolls on to bump it up to (+4, +2).

I started a thread over at roguetemple and I got some good replies from one guy there, and it's helped me play a little more effectively. If you guys have any helpful tips, hints etc, please share them!

[djwid]

I started with Moria and uMoria and have advanced down the line as each varient got popular etc, on rgra. I played nethack only sporatically, the big problem for me was the different key strokes for controls. After getting the basic angband key map burned into my fingertips I find it hard to switch.

Heck even after a 7 year haitus I found my fingers still remembered bands keymap.

[Donald Jonker]

NetHack is basically a point-and-click adventure game with an annoying ID system, and where you can also kill stuff and die. You get a super epic feeling when you hit the special levels and finally ascend. Like with adventure games, you have to spoil yourself rotten because nothing makes any sense, but in the end it's still very fun the first (few) times you beat it. Anyone who plays roguelikes should play it for at least a while.

DCSS and Angband are just not the same kinds of games. The only thing comparable is ADOM, which has the same sort of deep-set problems and the same sort of peculiar awesomeness.

[jsv]

I now carry the uninformed opinion that NetHack is roughly the equivalent of every Angband variant rolled into one.

No, it's more like all rogue-like games (including those not yet written) rolled into one with kitchen sinks added on top of it.

Personally, I prefer DCSS to it. Nethack is just too weird for my taste. Even with spoilers I'm unable to get its crazy rules.

[buzzkill]

Angband's story: <snip>

Nethack's story: <snip>

This thread, and this post in particular makes me want to play Nethack... and at the same time, not play NetHack. I now carry the uninformed opinion that NetHack is roughly the equivalent of every Angband variant rolled into one.

So when do we get persistent levels as an option?

[Nemesis]

will_asher: I was talking about the storylines of Angband and Nethack, and there I don't think Angband is any worse. The NetHack story remains the very same as Rogue, only you have to bring the amulet to the elemental planes as soon as you've ascended the dungeon. Ok, the quest levels perhaps have a wee bit of story too (but still it's "kill bad guy, bring back item" without a single twist). Not that I think Angband's story is any better, but it does perhaps have less random quirky stuff thrown into it. Sure it deviates from the Tolkien world quite a bit, but not quite as much as NetHack deviates from D&D (which could be the closest resemblance of any speciffic theme of the NetHack world).

Then of course, the mechanics of the NetHack world are much more complex, I won't disagree with you on that. It's a matter of preference, though, and I'd sum it up like this:

Angband has an infinite generation of stuff within a finite set of rules
NetHack has a finite generation of stuff within an infinite set of rules

I prefer Angband, but as I said it's a matter of taste!

[Pete Mack]

No, you just need to play FAangband

Or NPP, tho' it still has Yellow Snakes. To make up for that, it has really scary traps and terrain.

[Nick]

I almost want to play Nethack again now

No, you just need to play FAangband

[will_asher]

By the way, I don't think Angband's story is worse than Nethack's. Nethack's story is Rogue + various stuff from D&D, Zork and different mythologies, books and films thrown in for good measure. Angband, while not being exactly ADOM (another roguelike, which actually has an original story!), is all of Silmarillion + various stuff from D&D and different mythologies thrown in for good measure.

Angband's story:
- has almost nothing to do with the works of which it is supposedly based on (storywise).
- takes place in a dungeon where you can never go to the same level twice and all levels are pretty much the same except for which monsters and objects are generated.
- has many unique characters (at least half of which have nothing to do with Tolkien)
- has boring monsters (oh look there's a large yellow snake. oh my. ..oh my gosh look at that, it's a giant silver ant!)
- has two uninteresting quests: kill Sauron, then kill Morgoth. (no subplots, puzzles, or interesting places.)
- has a journey to level 100 which is just like every other level except that Morgoth is there and there's no downstairs until you kill him.
- has an arch-nemesis who stays on his level, dissapears when you cast *destruction*, and his most interesting attacks are just summoning other monsters or mana-storming for damage
- oh yeah, there's the occational vault. whup dee doo.

Nethack's story:
- takes place in a mappable dungeon (you can go back to the level you just came from).
- has interesting unique characters (quest characters, unique demons, Rodney, killable shopkeepers, watchmen, the high priests, the oracle, the four horsemen, Vlad the Impaler, and that rich dude I forget his name.)
- has a quest with a subplot unique to each class
- has more interesting monsters (seductive nymphs, mimmics which you can actualy mistake for an object, werebeasts which can actually spread lyncanthropy, gremlins which multiply in water, long worms that can swallow you, dogs which you can tame and watch them grow, Keystone Kops with rubber hoses and cream pies, trolls which come back from the dead, shapechangers..) with edable corpses and quotes from works of Literature or monster-reference books for most of them.
- has a journey into ghennom through a castle into the valley of the dead
- has the goal artifact guarded by an evil priest in the temple of Moloch
- has other interesting side stuff: Fort Ludios, the gnome mines, Medusa's Island, smaller temples, throne rooms, fountains, elemental planes, etc..
- has an arch-nemesis who not only summons other monsters, but also follows you from level to level, comes back from the dead, clones himself, etc..

I almost want to play Nethack again now, but now I have DaJAngband.

[Nemesis]

When I first tried Angband I was turned off (mainly because of lack of flavor & story of course of which Nethack has plenty), but I eventually decided that Angband was less frustrating and therefore more fun (I often got quite mad at Nethack). I also liked that it was possible to do pretty good in Angband (and maybe even win) without use of spoilers, which isn't really true of Nethack.

I hear you, I prefer Angband over Nethack because Nethack is so tedious, at least if you want to play the game effectivly. Stealing with your pet from shops, zapping wands at the floor to see what they do, price identifying stuff and so on. And on... And on...

And you always have to keep a notepad file and the spoilers wiki open when you play. In Angband, it can be useful to have monsters.txt open but you can do pretty fine with your monster memory too.

By the way, I don't think Angband's story is worse than Nethack's. Nethack's story is Rogue + various stuff from D&D, Zork and different mythologies, books and films thrown in for good measure. Angband, while not being exactly ADOM (another roguelike, which actually has an original story!), is all of Silmarillion + various stuff from D&D and different mythologies thrown in for good measure.

[getter77]

Rogue is the reason why these games are called "roguelikes". It was the first. Moria descended from Rogue, and Angband descended from Moria.

then waaaaay later Mines of Morgoth also descended from Moria.

[will_asher]

My first was rogue. I played it a few times from my friend's 5 1/4 inch floppy disk, but I never really got hooked on rogue. If it weren't for me finding Hack soon afterwood, I probably wouldn't have gotten into roguelikes. I played Hack for several years before hearing that Nethack existed*. Then played Nethack several years before getting into Angband. When I first tried Angband I was turned off (mainly because of lack of flavor & story of course of which Nethack has plenty), but I eventually decided that Angband was less frustrating and therefore more fun (I often got quite mad at Nethack). I also liked that it was possible to do pretty good in Angband (and maybe even win) without use of spoilers, which isn't really true of Nethack.

*I actually posted on some early question site asking if anyone knew how to win Hack because I had gotten to the maze levels several times, but couldn't figure out what do to from there because there was no down stairs that I could find. Along with that question I asked if there was any newer version which fixed some of Hack's many bugs. Someone answered the question by telling me about Nethack. A long time later I won Nethack (only once after a lot of help from the newgroup and spoilers), but I never did learn how to win Hack.

PS: I never noticed that "Yendor" was "Rodney" backwords until I looked at this just today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amulet_of_Yendor

[Derakon]

I first played Moria and then uMoria. Where does that fall in the pantheon? Was that after Rogue?

Rogue is the reason why these games are called "roguelikes". It was the first. Moria descended from Rogue, and Angband descended from Moria.

[JDTAY]

My first was Nethack. In my first game I died on level one from eating a kobold corpse. Good times, man, good times.