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The Roflwtfzomgbbq Quylthulg summons L33t Paladins -more-
In UnAngband, the level dives you.
ASCII Dreams: http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com
Unangband: http://unangband.blogspot.com
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That's good news!
If you want to check your work into SVN, here are the differences.
The only functional difference between the nibs is in the 'special' menu. The Angband special menu only has two entries since sound was turned into a game option. The UnAngband menu has 3 (4 counting the empty row.) If you want that menu to work properly, fix main.nib so that it matches the values in osx_tables.h. Otherwise, when you check sound, you will be enabling wizard mode. (And I don't know what will happen if you check wizard or fiddle. Fiddle isn't supposed to do anything; it's a convenience for debugging, left over from the dark ages.)
The 'about' page is different. All it has in it is the product name, copyright and primary authors. From objects.xib:
UnAngband
Macintosh Version
unangband@yahoogroups.com
Copyright (c) 2006
Andrew Doull
Robert Ruehlmann
Robert A Koeneke
James E Wilson
and many other people...
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... And one other thing. The first menu title in the menu bar should be UnAngband not Angband.Comment
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I downloaded the svn source rather than the "source" link from the UnAngband web page, and that compiles for Mac with no problems. So I think the problem is only in your source distribution.
By the way, I got this:
svn checkout svn://svn.berlios.de/unangband/trunk
svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.berlios.de': Connection refused
(This is advertised as available at http://developer.berlios.de/svn/?group_id=331)
Checking out by http worked fine, though. No firewall issues here; I use svn frequently from various (okay, two) hosts and have never had a problem.Comment
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Forgive me if resurrecting two-month old threads is frowned upon on this forum (I know that can be a cardinal sin in some places) but I thought that perhaps since I'm a raw newbie to Angband types, my comments might be useful to the developer.
It's only been a couple of weeks since I began trying anything other than Nethack, and Unangband was actually the first that I tried. Confusion is what turned me away from it initially, but having read this thread and having played a different type convinced me to give it another go.
The two main things that caused me to drop Unangband when I first tried it were:
* lack of documentation on the basics crucial to gameplay
* graphics seeming 'unfinished', which led to further confusion
Now, to be more precise:
When I press '?' I get only an error message saying that it couldn't find the help files. Whether they just haven't been implemented, or perhaps something went wrong during the download and installation, I'm not sure, but for a bonafide raw newbie who's never played these games, I was utterly at a loss without -any- help files at all.
I missed the message at the start that told which area to go to (silly pup jumped up and hit a key that cleared the screen before I read it) and I didn't know at the time that I could see it again by pressing ^P. So I went to the wrong area and was quickly killed before even having gained a level. Very frustrating due to the fact that I didn't know what to avoid next time. So including that in one of those beginning 'notes' would be helpful for people who've never played this type of game before.
It was a bit frustrating that the 'notes' told me to purchase certain things before heading into a dungeon, but none of the shops I found had any to sell. Minor point, but it's another factor that added into the confusion and frustration that caused me to give the game up so quickly.
I don't know whether the 'notes' are planned to be included as part of the help system, but it would be a very good idea. I'd love to be able to refer back to them, rather than jot everything down in a text file for fear I might forget something later.
The graphics was a major sticking point for me, and I imagine it's one of those unfinished features of the game, so I'm probably not about to tell you anything that you don't know. I'm one of those people who don't do well with ascii - I always opt for a graphical option instead. After trying all the different graphics, I found them all to have missing tiles that would revert to ascii, which to me made monsters look too similar to walls, and as a result, I often blundered into unintended fights. Also, I found that bringing up the command screen or other text often resulted in some of the text being transfered to the tiles, which I couldn't find a way to clear, and that made the entire screen that much more confusing. I also found that some things would cause black bars to appear in sections of the tiles after bringing up text, which also wouldn't go away. The end result of both problems can make a real mess of the screen.
After killing off several characters before having gained a level, I gave up in frustration, in the hopes that some other variant would be less confusing to learn. That proved to be quite true.
Now, I went back last night and gave the game another shot (which by the way was a direct result of reading this thread - very wise of you to realize that bringing up the subject periodically helps to keep the game alive and encourage people to try it). After having played a different variant, I knew a bit more of the basics, and that definitely makes it easier to understand what's going on.
The graphics remain a major problem for me, though. Something new I noticed - I entered a dark area in the dungeon and thought my torch must have gone out, so I refueled it, only to find that for some reason those tiles remained dark. Perhaps it's meant to be permanently dark, or it might be another of those 'missing graphic tile' problems, I have no clue.
Another quirk that bothered me was when I was given a choice to raise a stat. I did what it told me to do, but every key I pressed only resulted in a 'ding', until I finally hit escape, which resulted in the game then telling me I could choose two stats. It took my choices easily that time. I have no clue why it worked that time and not the first.
'Study' appeared on the bottom of my screen, but I couldn't find anything in the commands that told me -how- I was supposed to study. I can only assume it means I can learn a spell or something if I buy a book, but this is one of those times where some very basic documentation would clear up a lot of confusion and frustration.
It took me a bit to realize that the 'HungNext' I saw at the bottom of the screen meant I was hungry and the word was just running into 'Next'. Still not sure why the 'Next' is there, but it never seems to leave. It's possible that it only looks that way in the combination of graphics options I'm using, I have no idea (Gervais, big tile mode).
After turning off search mode in an area I had already explored (in an effort to conserve food), I found that the game turned it back on when I wasn't looking. That's fine, it's obviously intentionally coded into the game, but here again, something in documentation that mentioned this would prevent some head scratching. At first, I thought I'd done something wrong, and it took a bit to realize that it's just something the game does for me.
I thought the 'sneak' mode was a nifty little addition, though. I'm sure I'll enjoy that.
When selling some unidentified potions to a shop, it didn't acknowledge in the text portion of the window that I'd successfully sold them, or what they turned out to be. So each time I sold something, I had to use ^P to see what they were. I found this to be inconvenient compared to other games that print it right on the screen. And a raw newbie to this type of game wouldn't know to bring up their previous messages to see what their potions had turned out to be.
All in all, I -am- impressed with the game, and it really does seem to have a great deal of potential, so I plan to stick with it to check it out further. Andrew has obviously put in SO much time and effort into this, and seems to have some wonderful ideas. But I'm afraid that the lack of documentation is bound to put people off. It can literally make it impossible for those who've never played Angband types before, as it did for me that first go-round. My suggestion would be that there must be some aspects of the game that don't change all that frequently (or ever), very basic things, that could be documented. And if you're the sort who has no time / hates writing documentation, then you might possibly consider asking someone else who's very familiar with the game to do some. Even a little on basic game mechanics and such would be better than the nearly none that exists at the moment. And I'd also suggest getting those graphics problems solved, if possible.
My appreciation goes out to ALL the developers and maintainers of these games that we enjoy so much. Kudos!Comment
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Your timing is perfect, because we've just released 0.6.2-beta.
It's being packaged by the legitimate maintainer this time, so if your problems persist, they are not packaging related and we should have a chance to fix them before 0.6.2-final, with your testing help. I'll try to look at them shortly, but pretty please try beta, when your port is out, and tells us what's changed.
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I'll definitely watch that download page and give the beta a whirl once it comes out for Windows.
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Alrighty, I did a bit of playing on the new beta, and with very good results:
The help system is working now. Yay!
The graphics problem where it superimposed text onto tiles happens far less often. Before, it was happening nearly every time I brought up a message screen. With this beta, it's only happened a couple of times.
The other graphics problem where black bars appeared in a segment of the screen and wouldn't leave - I haven't noticed that happening in the beta at all so far.
The missing tiles that revert to ascii are still the same, and I've tried with all of the different graphics types to verify that those tiles are missing in all of them. So I assume they're just new goodies added after the graphics were made. The main problem with that (besides the fact that ascii contrast tends to give many people headaches, including little ol' me) is that there some instances where several different things are using the same color/symbol combination, making them impossible to differentiate without examining them, which is a bit of a pain when those tiles occur every few steps. It wouldn't be such a problem if it only happened with wall/floor tiles that weren't dangerous, but I've found at least one instance where the same symbol was used for a wall tile and a low level monster - the colors were slightly different, but unless both were present in close proximity, I couldn't differentiate between them.
Those were the biggest detractors from the game for me before, and this is a major improvement, even if the graphics still needs some tiles.
As I go, I'm jotting down little things that seem to need fixing, all very minor so far, and I suppose an official bug report would be the best way to let you know what I've found. I believe I saw a link for that on the blog site.
You guys are doing a great job, and I thank you for it.Comment
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Thanks a lot!
Good idea. I've added it to our bug tracker.I don't know whether the 'notes' are planned to be included as part of the help system, but it would be a very good idea. I'd love to be able to refer back to them, rather than jot everything down in a text file for fear I might forget something later.
I've put it on our bug tracker at
If you see any other graphics problems, please let us know. If you see any regularity, like problems with only one tileset --- please report as well. That some features miss tiles is a known problem. I think there is even a tool to ease assigning tiles to features, but somebody just has to do it all the time the game changes, preferably someone that plays with tiles. :<
You'll be really welcome, but in case of troubles, here is a good place for bug reports, too. Corrections to documentation are especially valuable (docs usually lag behind the game, just as the tiles) and especially from fresh players. Your documentation complains from the previous post seem great ideas, so if they were presented as English sentences ready to insert into the docs, some of them would land there at once...As I go, I'm jotting down little things that seem to need fixing, all very minor so far, and I suppose an official bug report would be the best way to let you know what I've found. I believe I saw a link for that on the blog site.
There should be a space between Hung and NEXT. Does it persist in other tile modes? In ASCII mode?It took me a bit to realize that the 'HungNext' I saw at the bottom of the screen meant I was hungry and the word was just running into 'Next'. Still not sure why the 'Next' is there, but it never seems to leave. It's possible that it only looks that way in the combination of graphics options I'm using, I have no idea (Gervais, big tile mode).
This is controlled by the option easy_search under "=1", off by default. Did you toggle that option? Does it work OK with the option turned off?After turning off search mode in an area I had already explored (in an effort to conserve food), I found that the game turned it back on when I wasn't looking.
What is your easy_more option set to? The option is still broken, I think, so it should be off. Perhaps you could try resetting all your options to default (delete or move some configuration file?) and try again? Or do a fresh install (wiping out the previous version)?When selling some unidentified potions to a shop, it didn't acknowledge[...]
Good luck in your games and do post on the ladder once you conquer a dungeon or two.
Last edited by Bandobras; February 5, 2008, 15:11.Comment
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I posted saying it doesn't sound interesting. The main reason is the overwhelming number of features. It just sounds too complex for me to feel interested. I could change my mind in the future if I ever get around to trying it out.Comment
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Thanks for feedback. Perhaps we should:
* stop advertising features and start advertising the qualities that emerge thanks to features, such as interesting AI, levels very different one from another, distinct possible play (or even role-play) styles, etc.
* improve and simplify UI for the new features (both for player actions and for display of the new things); personally I'd also unify some rules a little bit more (though Un is already quite unified)Comment
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Welcome.
Reading about immersive themes and improved play options does sound better to me than a huge list of features. Share what those features add to the game, what they make possible.Perhaps we should:
* stop advertising features and start advertising the qualities that emerge thanks to features, such as interesting AI, levels very different one from another, distinct possible play (or even role-play) styles, etc.
This was the thing that put me off the most. This sounds like a good move. Keep the additional features, but integrate them in such a way so the player is not overwhelmed with having to track 'too much iinformation.' A level of complexity forcing the player to stay aware of whats happening is one thing. Having so much going on that it takes two or three minutes to determine the next move is another.* improve and simplify UI for the new features (both for player actions and for display of the new things); personally I'd also unify some rules a little bit more (though Un is already quite unified)
Best -- ElsaironComment
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I've been too busy lately to really try the latest Un release, so I can't entirely claim to know what I'm talking about, but I'd like to add a couple of points here.
Firstly, I have built the latest release and I have to report that the documentation and help files etc (the main thing that made it difficult to get into Un initially) are still in sore need of reworking. In some places, as far as I can tell, they're just plain incorrect. The in-game tips are a great idea, but still not enough.
Many feature tiles and objects in Un give descriptions of what the player can do with them, but no clear instructions - this is fine, because I think that the player is supposed to figure out how to apply the available commands correctly to achieve the desired result. Reminds me a bit of abandonware adventure games, where you know what you want to do, but have to figure out the correct two words to type. This is great, but to liken the analogy to Unangband, it's like playing one of those games in a foreign language. It's sometimes so difficult to find the correct key press for what should be a trivial action.
I can write very good English quickly and with enthusiasm, not to mention the fact that I have a great passion for prose again at the moment. Don't let my forum babbling fool you, an hour and two drafts from me generally produces work of an extremely commendable standard - and docs are hardly poetry! I always scored excellent marks at essay writing, able to squeeze in all the relevant information in a well structured, clear and accessible manner.
Unfortunately I simply don't have the time right now to do the collation & game research necessary to do what I would like to do, which is rewrite all the help files for you and add in the sections that need adding. After all, I haven't really played the game since last year. If either Bandobras or Andrew would like to meet me half-way and review the situation for me, then share good notes and ideas with me, preferably in the form of a tarball with all the existing docs etc coupled with information on all available commands and a good set of instructions for what needs to be done (or even just the issues, so that I can more quickly work out myself what needs to be done) then between a few spare hours here and there and a little communication between us, inside a week or two I should have something much better for you than what exists already.
The main problem is that the game is just growing so damn fast, and because it's largely "a bunch of brain-dead of hacks" I appreciate that keeping on top of new features and squashing bugs leaves little time for those things less important to its existing fans but of vital import to keeping new players interested.
I appreciate that the notes might already have been made; even if not the people hacking on the game are in a much better position to compile them than I am. Let me know.
You sold a Broken Sword (1d2) (-2,-4) {average} (j) for 1 gold.
The shopkeeper howls in agony!
You say "Dude, the clue is in the name...".Comment
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I could be wrong, but I think that maybe when people see a long list of "new stuff" added to a game, Slash'Em might come to mind. I played that for a few weeks, until I saw for myself that all those New Goodies were just thrown in helter skelter, and apart from saying "oh look, that's new" it not only didn't add anything real to the game, it just unbalanced it pretty badly. And Unangband is -completely- opposite of that.
So I think you're on the right track there. People who play these games seem to look for a new experience, new type of gameplay, overall differences rather than little specific ones like items.
Elsairon - it really is an absorbing game. I'm quite impressed with it, to the extent that I'm actually ignoring my other games in favor of it. And that's saying something.
Speaking of which... one way to eradicate redundancy would be to code the notes to appear when the subject is encountered for the first time. Obviously that would only apply to items (like the notes on mushrooms, potions). Basic gameplay notes would have to be done differently. Just a thought. The repitition honestly isn't at a level of being an annoyance - more just an appearance of imperfection, really.Originally posted by Daven_26d1
And Daven, it's wonderful of you to offer to help with the documentation. I hope that works out. I'd love to lend a hand myself, but being such a beginner at this really hampers me there.
Bandobras - I decided to post a list of my results in a separate thread, since it's really so off topic for this one. I put it here.Comment
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