balancing duel-wielding (is it possible?)

[will_asher]

I just figured out how I could add duel-wielding in the code, but I'm not going to add it yet because it would be unbalanced. I'd be a cool thing to add though if I/we can figure out how to balance it to keep it from being too powerful.
Any ideas? Do you think it's possible to add it without it being too powerful?

My first thoughts are to only allow certain classes to do it (maybe only warrior & ranger) and then only when STR and DEX are high. Probably, you'd make one less blow with your main weapon in order to use your off-hand weapon also. Of course, there'd be to-hit penalties too. Do you think these things would be enough?

BTW, I know you're thinking the ranger is overpowered already, but in DaJAngband the ranger doesn't get extra shots. I made the archer class for that.

[buzzkill]

I never really put much thought into it, but here goes.
In my half-brained opinion, dual wielding should be something like sacrificing both the shield and bow (second weapon takes the bow slot and the shield goes in the pack), in favor of another melee weapon and another attack (or multiple attacks at half the normal rate ith the off hand). There should be a lower proficiency with the off hand weapon, and both weapons should be of the single handed variety (and maybe negate some built in penalty for having similar weapon types, 2 swords, 2 daggers, 2 axes) and their combined weight should not exceed the max allowed by STR.
There's a lot of ways you could go with this and it sounds like fun. This is my novice opinion, as I've not played a dual wielding variant yet.

[momo125]

i don't think you get rid of both shield and bow. I do like ?? varient where there are 2 handed weapons that do more damage than 1 and you can't wield shield. (Also add a little Ac like defender as a parry) or 1 handed w/o shield does more. warriors got nerferd with new ID system, give it only to them and maybe thieves with small weapons and pal with med. better yet not th and give them backstab (first attack only like NPP)
if not for warr then warr atleast needs shield bash to stun.

attacks / round need to be based on combined wt of both wps

that was a huge boost to rng with new psd id. priest and mage also, but not as much

[Donald Jonker]

Heng/Entro(Z?) would be the obvious reference point. Un has it as well, but I don't know enough about how it handles it to say anything intelligent. Heng/Entro combat isn't broken, so if you follow that road faithfully, it can certainly be balanced. Main problem there that it's almost always advisable to take a second weapon over a shield, since weapons seem to be more heavily loaded with bonuses and resistances and so forth.

Edit: To-hit penalties are probably in order, but Heng mitigates these by gradually raising dual-wield skill. A similar effect can probably be accomplished by level-up bonuses.

A more appropriate thing to do, in my opinion, would be to both make AC more important, and make dual wielders take a significant hit to AC. Ideally that hit should just be the amount you'd lose by not wearing a shield, but I understand that'd be a whole lot of work to rebalance (but worth it). A larger, artificial hit would be acceptable, though.

AC is so unimportant in *bands that it's an area that could use some serious rethinking. Here's a good excuse to begin.

[Atarlost]

As I understand it the whole point of dual wielding is defense. You can't really use your off-hand weapon effectively to attack unless they're identical. I think paired weapons are an eastern thing that doesn't entirely fit in the Tolkein mythos. European two-weapon fighting usually uses something like a rapier-main gauche combo where the latter is used allmost exclusively for parrying.

What I would do is merge shields and weapons. Give weapons AC to represent parrying and give shields damage to represent shield bashes. require the secondary weapon to be of equal or lesser mass than the primary or a shield. Give a 20% chance per round per blow/round of a free attack with the secondary weapon/shield or the only weapon if two-handed. Give shields above the smallest a stunning flag.

[PaulBlay]

Angband/64 has dual wield (so Angband/65 will have it ... eventually).

However it is class specific and only the gladiators can do it. They are restricted to light weapons (right hand) and even lighter weapons (left hand). No dual-wielding two-handed swords please!

They also can't use shields or armour.

They are the warrior equivalent of the High Priest class (who can't hurt a fly with physical attacks but can use four rings and cast mage and priest spells).

[Pete Mack]

Surely they can use soft armor?

[PaulBlay]

Surely they can use soft armor?

Apparently the power of the gladiator can only be brought forth through exposed pecks*. (Bonus to attack for 'glistening with sweat in the sun').

      if ( (slot==INVEN_BODY) || ( (!gladiator_weapon) && (slot==INVEN_ARM)))
      {
         msg_format("As a gladiator, you can't wear this %s.",
                    slot==INVEN_BODY?"armour":"shield");
         return;
      }

* Lionskin boob-tubes available for female characters.

[will_asher]

Main problem there that it's almost always advisable to take a second weapon over a shield, since weapons seem to be more heavily loaded with bonuses and resistances and so forth.

This seems to be the biggest problem to me. It's the main thing that makes me think it would be very hard to balance dual-wielding in a way that anyone would ever want to wear a shield once when they could duel-wield.

[Atarlost]

Giving shields a chance to block bolts would possibly do it. A large shield blocking 40% of incoming bolt-type spells would make it very attractive even if its armor value were insignificant. A great deal of the purpose of shields, particularly large shields, is to block arrows after all. You'd have to adjust the AI spell selection routines to prefer ball and breath attacks against people using shields, though.

[Magnate]

This seems to be the biggest problem to me. It's the main thing that makes me think it would be very hard to balance dual-wielding in a way that anyone would ever want to wear a shield once when they could duel-wield.

Have a look at Sangband. It has dual wielding, yet I always choose a shield - so it is clearly balanced in the way you suggest (perhaps too well). There are quite big restrictions on dual-wielding, and you don't get many extra attacks. I don't remember the details, but it's always seemed sensible to me.

[Variaz]

I have Dual Wielding in Portralis, and the way I implemented it is that it requires points in the Dual Wield skill, or you'll suffer major hit rate and blows penalities. Furthermore, you need to put "natural" points(not points granted by items, but points you receive upon level up) in it to get the full benefits. Also, the heavier the two weapons, the more points you need. So it requires some investment. Shields provides better blocking("better" in the case where you're using a weapon that allows blocking, many weapons don't even allow it) and there are special abilities that gives you fighting bonus for using a Shield, so there are options for both styles.