Ideas from Shiren the Wanderer

[Donald Jonker]

I've been playing a lot of Shiren the Wanderer of late, a japanese roguelike for the SNES that was ported in English to the DS (highly recommended, by the way). It's more of a hack-style game, but there are some items that I've been thinking could be profitably imported to increase tactical depth in *bands, without breaking balance too much.

I've adapted the item types to conform to *band standards.

Wand of Knockback: knocks a monster back until it runs into an obstruction (e.g. a wall or another monster) upon which it takes damage. This would be a pretty potent item: not as powerful as -telOther but in the same ballpark. The power could be limited by reducing the knockback range.

Wand of Swapping: causes the player to trade places with the target monster. Useful for escapes, but only if the target monster is either away from other monsters, or if the char is powerful and wants to protect himself within a mob of weaker monsters. Probably other creative applications as well. Would be very useful in conjunction with Wand of Knockback or a spell of scare monster.

Wand of Postpone: basically works the same as -telOther, except the monster in question gets set on top of the stairs and paralyzed there. May not make as much sense in Angband given that there are multiple sets of stairs, but it still may work. An interesting trade-off.

Wand of Paralysis: causes the target monster to be paralyzed for x number of turns. If disturbed, e.g., by an attack, it gets a turn immediately. Don't know if this is feasible with *band's energy system.

Scroll of Sleep: works the same as Angband's mass sleep spell, except that it always works, and once it wears off, newly woken monsters get a speed boost (which would have to be temporary in bands). If the reason that charm spells aren't implemented in *bands is because they'd be too powerful, this might be a good trade-off.

Mushroom of Dragon's Breath: you eat it and then pick a direction to breathe. Fun mushroom flavor, that's all.

[Zikke]

I love the first two ideas. Those would be super useful.


And speaking personally, I don't move faster right when I wake up...

[Gen0cide]

I do love the potential combination possible from the first two, and the second raises some potentially creative ideas.

Just to add, a weaker wand of force that knocks the enemy back a limited amount of steps could be a useful addition as well.

[PaulBlay]

Just to add, a weaker wand of force that knocks the enemy back a limited amount of steps could be a useful addition as well.

I think 'knockback one step' would be a great ability for artifact daggers for spell caster types.

[Atarlost]

The first two both exist in some form in ToME which may say something about how balancable they are.
There is a GF_FORCE which knocks a monster back two spaces and does extra damage if it hits a wall and there is a swap positions ability given by a certain artifact.
Force beams, which perform the unlimited range knockback at cardinal and semicardinal directions, are one of the most sought after spells for thaumaturgists (random spell set casters who are also the only people who can get them) and the ring of flare is a strong contender for the most powerful fixed artifact jewelry in the game primarily because of the swap ability.
Keep in mind this is in ToME which is not the gamebalance posterchild.

[Donald Jonker]

I've been playing more and more Shiren - it's drawn me away from angband for the nonce; the tactical depth is simply unsurpassed among roguelikes, among video games in general, except maybe Final Fantasy Tactics. But it's a commercial game, and the community will eventually die out, whereas Angband's and/or its successors will in all likelihood live for many many years, if not indefinitely.

So here's my idea for a Shiren-inspired variant. I don't have the know-how to make it happen, though maybe once school ends I'll have time to learn some C and do it. If anyone wants to take some of these ideas, by all means...

I'm guessing the first thing folks will say is that it's simply not Angband. Probably it isn't.. don't care. Just throwing ideas out.

1. Reexamine the bestiary from the first principles
Fewer, better differentiated monsters. If a monster does not provoke a new tactical consideration, then remove it. We don't need kobalds, orcs, trolls, ogres, &c, &c. Have baby orcs, young orcs, leveled up as ye see fit. One race is enough for the generic warrior monster. An example of monsters done right is the dragon family.
Give monsters new, interesting attributes. Make some always flee and difficult to kill, but give them exceptionally good drops. Some with crazy high damage, crazy low HP. Make some with powerful melee from two and only two tiles away. Make some with really high AC, but vulnerable to magic. Let them mess with players' inventories and items on the floor: make the player keep them at a distance, and fight for what he gets. Give monsters tactical vulnerabilities that are intuitive to the player: fire monsters are vulnerable to ice, &c. Undead are hurt by thrown healing pots. Flying monsters are vulnerable to ranged weapons.
Monsters are fewer in number/level, but stronger. Give the player something to think about each time he enters a room. He should use his consumables on a regular basis; his life should be in danger on a regular basis by in-depth monsters.

2. Smaller levels, fewer drops
Give fewer rewards for grinding, because it's not fun. Balance smaller levels so the player will explore the entire level, pick up all items and move on. Give appropriate risk/reward for monster drops: if a monster can drop something, let that monster also be a thief.

3. Potent magic
The charm spells have incredible potential - make them work! If they'd be too powerful, make a trade-off: a slowed monster gets going faster once it wears off, a sleeping monster goes berserk when he wakes up, a confused monster kills his brethren and levels up into a higher order monster in his family. Or just decrease their duration. But if the spell succeeds, the effect should _always_ work. Same goes for devices.
As for devices, the ones listed in the first post would add tactical depth, but we could use more. Let STM be used to dig pits; make a staff of mini-destruction.
But the key is quality, not quantity. We don't need earthquakes, AND destruction. We don't need disarming AND destroy doors and traps. Cut the chaff. Get rid of !*healing* and !life. Just make !healing cure all HP.

4. Transparency
Show the rules. Always. Monster memories should be complete on first playing, but they shouldn't be necessary. Show how much damage is put out, how much is taken. When looking at a shield, show the benefits to evasion and damage reduction, &c, &c. I for one would favor the complete removal of ID in any form: more energy to focus on tactics. But I'm probably in a tiny minority there.

...that's all for now. More if/when it comes to me, assuming I don't get run out of town.

[buzzkill]

I can't find a lot to disagree with here, save for the Transparency bit. Angband, at least for me, has a lot to do with learning on the fly.

I especially liked this bit, which sadly, is hardly ever the case.

Monsters are fewer in number/level, but stronger. Give the player something to think about each time he enters a room. He should use his consumables on a regular basis; his life should be in danger on a regular basis by in-depth monsters.

This, at least to me, sounds like current uniques. Usually challenging when encountered in-depth.

My standard game always seems to end when I am swarmed upon by many monsters, wearing away my HP's in a slow grind. Follow that up with an unfortunate teleport or two. Either that, or a debilitating effect such as confusion or paralysis.

What I'd like to see most is a level playing field. In depth monsters having similar variety of options, hit points, and damage output as your player. I guess what I'm getting at here is... if only all (or at least more) monsters were "unique".

[Matthias]

I've also been playing Shiren a lot recently, and there is indeed a lot in it that would work in an Angband setting. The well balanced magic system that always works is the one thing that sets shiren apart. It only works because of the limited inventory space and the monsters that make you use it or you die.


Also.. DonJoker... I knew the name sounded familiar.
Have you tried throwing gitans yet?

[Donald Jonker]

I can't find a lot to disagree with here, save for the Transparency bit. Angband, at least for me, has a lot to do with learning on the fly.

Yeah, this even goes further than Shiren.. but I'm still confident it would be a change for the better. Though I'd probably have to do it myself to ever see it happen (aside from in doomRL, that is - which does indeed have some interesting tactical play).

This, at least to me, sounds like current uniques. Usually challenging when encountered in-depth. [...] What I'd like to see most is a level playing field. In depth monsters having similar variety of options, hit points, and damage output as your player. I guess what I'm getting at here is... if only all (or at least more) monsters were "unique".

Maybe not quite that far in terms of potency (I just don't see how one could survive it - I have trouble enough with the maggot dogs at clvl1), but in the same ballpark. And I'd definitely be in favor of making all monsters more "unique."

My standard game always seems to end when I am swarmed upon by many monsters, wearing away my HP's in a slow grind. Follow that up with an unfortunate teleport or two.

On that note, I'd be in favor of a more diversified method of what UnAndrew has referred to in his blog as "resetting the player state" (or something along those lines). The various teleporting devices and !CCW, are all kind of get-out-of-jail-free cards that wipe the slate clean as if nothing had ever happened. In shiren there's really only one - fleeing the level. Not sure I'd go quite that far, but one ought to be more compelled to deal with tough situations, and if you survive, bear scars and reap rewards.

Thinking about it, Ironband's environment is fairly close to what I have in mind, or at least would be a sound platform to begin. That makes me pretty confident that ideas from the two games can be compatible.

I've also been playing Shiren a lot recently, and there is indeed a lot in it that would work in an Angband setting. The well balanced magic system that always works is the one thing that sets shiren apart. It only works because of the limited inventory space and the monsters that make you use it or you die. Also.. DonJoker... I knew the name sounded familiar.Have you tried throwing gitans yet?

lol... i've been called out! Well, if I ever get a project off the ground, I'll know who to consult.