Sangband and spell realms

[Malak Darkhunter]

Okay playing around with the spell realms in Sangband I noticed that once you pick a realm of magic you cannot learn spells from any other realm. But I have to ask, is this fair? The whole game is about customizing different skills,why limit a players options? I might for instance want to combine the realms of wizardry with necromancy, or maybe create a druid priest as in a priest worshipping a nature goddess sort of way. Also at one time I tried to create a type of Blackguard type character, a fighter with strong necromatic spells, but the limit on spell level without taking an oath proved to be a bummer, I ended up with a weaker character than I had imagined. Wouldn't Sang be a little more true to form without all these limitations?

[CJNyfalt]

I would agree, but we are probably in a minority.
The hardcore players usually discuss methods of limiting the skill selection even more.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Sangband is supposed to be class-less, but I find that that's not true, it's still follows the same basic classes of the other bands, with the exception of maybe a few different titles. You develope burgarly skills, your called a rogue, piety skills a priest excetra. I understand the need to limit some things for balance issues, but when it comes to skills and spell realms the limitations need be removed, otherwise sang is still following a pre-constructed class based skill set.

[Magnate]

Sangband is supposed to be class-less, but I find that that's not true, it's still follows the same basic classes of the other bands, with the exception of maybe a few different titles. You develope burgarly skills, your called a rogue, piety skills a priest excetra. I understand the need to limit some things for balance issues, but when it comes to skills and spell realms the limitations need be removed, otherwise sang is still following a pre-constructed class based skill set.

First, Sang's author (Leon Marrick) has specifically said that he has balanced the game for characters with 6 to 10 skills, and that he has no sympathy for those playing with more.

That said, I'm an all-skill player too, though it causes terrible inventory problems.

I don't agree that Sang is following class strictures though. Of course it's possible to play as any of the six regular V classes - there would be an outcry if it wasn't - but it's also possible to play any number of other permutations: the O classes, martial artists, other-realm assassins/rogues/rangers, forgers etc etc.

CC

[camlost]

I also would like to see this change, but I don't think Leon is interested in such a change, so I'm unlikely to spend time working to support it.

There are certainly some limitations on characters that the game enforces. I like to think that overall, they enhance the balance of the game rather than eliminating choice. There are still plenty of good spells to choose from with a blackguard, no?

otherwise sang is still following a pre-constructed class based skill set.

I disagree. In what variant can you play a rogue/priest like character? Who, in the late game becomes amazing with magic devices? There are always going to be a finite number of "combinations" in any game. That a few are artificially pruned is not a big deal.

Honestly, though, I expect that most of the pruning is for flavor reasons, and I am working on reducing the amount of pruning.

----- Offtopic ahead! ----

In the next version I release (date unknown), there will be a hard cap at power 100. I think that this will encourage characters to specialize sufficiently. I personally see no problem in winning the game with either of these skill sets. Some builds will require a wider array of skills than others, but sacrifice potency, which is fine.

power=93, 4 skills
Jousting          : 100%
Spell Resistance  : 100%
Weaponsmithing    : 100%
Armor Forging     : 100%

-or-

power=94, 13 skills
Swordsmanship     :  66%    (max 69%)
Clubbing          :  67%    (max 70%)
Jousting          :  95%    (max 100%)
Archery - Xbows   : 100%
Archery - Bows    :  49%    (max 52%)
Nature Lore       :  71%    (max 75%)
Magical Device    :  50%
Perception        :  82%
Stealth           :  86%
Disarming         :  68%    (max 70%)
Dodging           :  92%
Spell Resistance  :  92%
Armor Forging     :  99%    (max 100%)

[Magnate]

I also would like to see this change, but I don't think Leon is interested in such a change, so I'm unlikely to spend time working to support it.

Sadly I think you're right, though I think it would be a positive change. After all, using two spell realms comes at a considerable cost: two realm stats to pump, and two sets of books to carry. 14 inv slots on books, anyone?? If anyone thinks that this is not enough (say, because you'd only really carry six to eight), you could always dynamically adjust the costs of Spellcasting and Magical Power based on the number of realms ...

In the next version I release (date unknown), there will be a hard cap at power 100. I think that this will encourage characters to specialize sufficiently.

There were several threads last year discussing various options for discouraging excessive numbers of skills, and this was not one I supported. But I have always admired and enjoyed your versions of the game, so I hope this will be no exception. If you do implement this solution, please bear one thing in mind: players will need to be able to plan their builds. So you'll need to write an entire calculator which takes the character's current skill levels (no going back), and allows them to play with permutations of future skill levels, all the way up to power 100.

The mathematics linking skill levels to power level are sufficiently complex that most people could not do this planning without assistance. Without such a calculator, I fear that I for one will be unable to enjoy this new version.

CC

[camlost]

So you'll need to write an entire calculator which takes the character's current skill levels (no going back), and allows them to play with permutations of future skill levels, all the way up to power 100.

Or I could just let people decrement skills (no getting the XP back, though). It's thematically less pleasant, but I can't think of a good way to handling the calculations in an easy fashion.

you could always dynamically adjust the costs of Spellcasting and Magical Power based on the number of realms ...

Honestly, if I were redoing this, I'd probably roll the cost of Spellcasting into the individual realm skills and use that, but that's probably just laziness talking. Either that or invert the uses and costs of "Spellcasting" and the realm skills. I'd really want to support asymmetric casters (i.e. mostly priest with some nature ability)

[Magnate]

Or I could just let people decrement skills (no getting the XP back, though). It's thematically less pleasant, but I can't think of a good way to handling the calculations in an easy fashion.

Hmm. You've got me quite interested in this now. I was thinking of a screen that looks exactly like the XP screen only with "XP Calculator" across the top. On that screen you can put skills up and down without spending any xp, and see the effect on your total power. I expect we could re-use most of the code from the existing xp screen, with a hack to avoid spending xp and a little bit added to show total power (which IIRC isn't shown until you exit the xp screen).

If you do implement this cap, I might have a look at implementing the calculator.

Honestly, if I were redoing this, I'd probably roll the cost of Spellcasting into the individual realm skills and use that, but that's probably just laziness talking. Either that or invert the uses and costs of "Spellcasting" and the realm skills. I'd really want to support asymmetric casters (i.e. mostly priest with some nature ability)

Ooh yes, that last is an excellent idea, except that it does rather knacker warriors collecting talents. But I fully support the idea of asymmetric casters.

Now, in case Mr Darkhunter is still reading, I lay awake last night running through these in my head:

Sangband 'class' options

First we have the warrior and the four pure casters (mage, priest, druid, necro).
Then we have the four classic semi-casters (rogue, paladin, ranger, assassin).
These are the nine classes available in O, six of whom are in V.

The four semi-casters immediately suggest two new base archetypes: the thief (spell-less rogue/assassin) and the archer (spell-less ranger, who in S can specialise in slings or xbows or even throwing, not just bows). So we now have seven base classes, which offers us a total of 12 semi-casters. The other eight are:

Warrior-mage
Warrior-druid (shaman?)
Warrior-necro (chaos knight)
Arcane Archer
Holy Archer
Dark Archer
Thief-druid (stalker)
Thief-priest (monk?)

Then there are the Warrior-thief (ninja), Archer-thief and Warrior-archer. So we're at 7 base classes and 15 dual classes so far - but Sang offers us two other specialisms: the forger and the zapper. (Yes, you can win S with magic devices alone.) Each of these pairs with the other base classes for a total of 30 dual classes, or 39 options in total.

From those 39 only the archer-zapper seems a completely redundant pairing, though the current oath structure mitigates against a pure forger (and a few of the others could be considered challenge builds). Still, that leaves a lot of interesting combinations. Allowing two-realm casters would add precisely six more, so I don't think their absence can be said to limit the game to "a pre-constructed class-based skill set". Then there are the 84 triple-class combinations, 50 of which don't involve more than one spell realm ...

Having said that, I'd be the first to agree that the Oath arrangements could be improved, and I think Leon has acknowledged that too.

CC

[Malak Darkhunter]

I'm trying this again, just to get a fresh perspective on what irritated me last time I tried this build. I'm currently putting a lot of skill points into swordsmanship, necromancy, spellcasting, magical power, magic device, perception, disarming, spell resistance, and a little into stealth. I think what turned me off last time was the level cap and the oaths, I did not want to take any oaths, I wanted to solely invest skill points into what I wanted to learn, having to take a oath to advance a skill blocked me from what I was trying to achieve. I guess you can call my character a "Renegade" sort of like the wizards of dragonlance, who do not owe their allegiance to any realm. I could not get to the more powerful spells that would have made a difference in the game, what I was left with was a character who had a few descent offensive spells at the begining of the game to a character who was weak in spellpower toward the middle of the game, because of level cap on advancing a spell realm without taking an oath of necromancy to advance. I did not aim to make a necromancer to begin with, but I expected to at least raise a skill up to about 75 in necromancy so my character would have some great offensive spells in the latter game, I'm perfectly okay with not being able to learn the most powerful spells, those are reserved for the true spellcasters.
Maybe the level cap on spellrealms without taking oaths need to be bumped up a bit. Once I reached the level cap, I sort of felt like I was wasting my time, because I had reached a roadblock, and should have either just made a warrior, or a true necromancer instead.

[Magnate]

To Joshua: I just thought of something - will the hard cap include 'bonus' points in similar skills? This wouldn't be too bad for the burglary suite (most of which are desirable), but would be a definite nerf for weapon-using builds. If I'm faced with a hard cap of 100 power, I want to be able to refuse the not-very-helpful 'bonus' points in my non-preferred weapon skills.

FWIW, my expectation was always that any hard cap on number of skills would ignore these - so e.g. you could have one weapon skill and five others and count as playing with six skills.

CC

[Magnate]

To Malak:

I think the problem you have identified is the implementation of oaths. To be honest I've never really thought they worked very well, and they seem to have got worse. In previous versions non-oath spellcasters were only limited to half mana (level 50 magic power) - they could still achieve level 100 in both spellcasting and their realm skill.

I think Leon implemented oaths as a kind of incentive to specialise, but it didn't really have the desired effect. I think if a hard cap on skills is implemented (however it's done), there's really no need for oaths. Anyone investing in a skill to a high enough level should get its benefits (e.g. the Oath of Iron specials in martial arts) - because they have forgone the benefits of other skills.

I think it is oaths which create the echoes of class restrictions, and without them it would feel quite a lot more like it's supposed to.

Just my 2p,

CC

[camlost]

To Joshua: I just thought of something - will the hard cap include 'bonus' points in similar skills? This wouldn't be too bad for the burglary suite (most of which are desirable), but would be a definite nerf for weapon-using builds. If I'm faced with a hard cap of 100 power, I want to be able to refuse the not-very-helpful 'bonus' points in my non-preferred weapon skills.

FWIW, my expectation was always that any hard cap on number of skills would ignore these - so e.g. you could have one weapon skill and five others and count as playing with six skills.

CC

It must have been a while since you've played. Leon removed the "bonus" points, and instead made the skill cheaper to some extent if you choose to take both skills. See most dumps from 1.00 and onward:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=6946

The power calculator should probably take into account the related skills being cheaper. I'm not sure if it does or not.


In general, instead of the hard caps, we are using skill penalties instead for oaths. Thus, you can raise your magic device to 100% as a warrior, but it only counts for 50% (67% in my version) in calculations. There is a penalty for mana for non-oathed characters, and a decrease in *potency* of spells, but I think the spell selection is the same, but it's been a while since I've tried.

I'm trying this again, just to get a fresh perspective on what irritated me last time I tried this build. I'm currently putting a lot of skill points into swordsmanship, necromancy, spellcasting, magical power, magic device, perception, disarming, spell resistance, and a little into stealth.

Your list is too long. This is around 1.5 characters worth of skills. You can make characters like this work, but you've got to realize that you won't be 100% on all those skills at once.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Just an update on my character, I now have him at skill level 40 at spellcasting, magical power, and blood dominon. So far only complaints are weak mana, only has 18 mana points so far. Will this change with stat gain? And boy I could really use a light spell! Necromancy dosen't seem to have one. Just to be curious, playing the new beta version of Sang, I am having a hard time finding artifacts, Have killed several uniques so far, Bullroarar, wormtongue, Lagduf, Grishnak, Smeagol, but barely an ego item one has been found yet. I really need the Phial.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Finally got some luck on level 17 found a Katana of Slay Evil (+1+5), I know sad isn't it? Killed of Grishnak, Golfimbul, and Orfax, found boots 3+8 off Golfimbul, and a mace (+2+4) off of Grishnak and a ring of sustain mind off of Orfax. No artifacts yet, seems to be getting better though, have already found 2 stat gain potions, they seem to be popping up earlier in this version, used to be you had to be around Dlevel35 to find stat potions of strength and constitution. Really need the phial or a rod of illumination, no lights in rooms are causing me to get my but kicked!

[camlost]

Finally got some luck on level 17 found a Katana of Slay Evil (+1+5), I know sad isn't it? Killed of Grishnak, Golfimbul, and Orfax, found boots 3+8 off Golfimbul, and a mace (+2+4) off of Grishnak and a ring of sustain mind off of Orfax. No artifacts yet, seems to be getting better though, have already found 2 stat gain potions, they seem to be popping up earlier in this version, used to be you had to be around Dlevel35 to find stat potions of strength and constitution. Really need the phial or a rod of illumination, no lights in rooms are causing me to get my but kicked!

Necromancy does indeed have a light spell, in a dungeon book. You're still exceptionally early for artifacts. I generally don't find artifacts until more like dlevel 40 or so. I made no changes regarding artifact drop rates, though. The phial is not a low-level artifact like in many variants. I frequently find the Star before the Phial.

Increasing you intelligence will greatly increase your mana, as would taking the oath.