Sangband and spell realms

[camlost]

So you'll need to write an entire calculator which takes the character's current skill levels (no going back), and allows them to play with permutations of future skill levels, all the way up to power 100.

Or I could just let people decrement skills (no getting the XP back, though). It's thematically less pleasant, but I can't think of a good way to handling the calculations in an easy fashion.

you could always dynamically adjust the costs of Spellcasting and Magical Power based on the number of realms ...

Honestly, if I were redoing this, I'd probably roll the cost of Spellcasting into the individual realm skills and use that, but that's probably just laziness talking. Either that or invert the uses and costs of "Spellcasting" and the realm skills. I'd really want to support asymmetric casters (i.e. mostly priest with some nature ability)

[Magnate]

I also would like to see this change, but I don't think Leon is interested in such a change, so I'm unlikely to spend time working to support it.

Sadly I think you're right, though I think it would be a positive change. After all, using two spell realms comes at a considerable cost: two realm stats to pump, and two sets of books to carry. 14 inv slots on books, anyone?? If anyone thinks that this is not enough (say, because you'd only really carry six to eight), you could always dynamically adjust the costs of Spellcasting and Magical Power based on the number of realms ...

In the next version I release (date unknown), there will be a hard cap at power 100. I think that this will encourage characters to specialize sufficiently.

There were several threads last year discussing various options for discouraging excessive numbers of skills, and this was not one I supported. But I have always admired and enjoyed your versions of the game, so I hope this will be no exception. If you do implement this solution, please bear one thing in mind: players will need to be able to plan their builds. So you'll need to write an entire calculator which takes the character's current skill levels (no going back), and allows them to play with permutations of future skill levels, all the way up to power 100.

The mathematics linking skill levels to power level are sufficiently complex that most people could not do this planning without assistance. Without such a calculator, I fear that I for one will be unable to enjoy this new version.

CC

[camlost]

I also would like to see this change, but I don't think Leon is interested in such a change, so I'm unlikely to spend time working to support it.

There are certainly some limitations on characters that the game enforces. I like to think that overall, they enhance the balance of the game rather than eliminating choice. There are still plenty of good spells to choose from with a blackguard, no?

otherwise sang is still following a pre-constructed class based skill set.

I disagree. In what variant can you play a rogue/priest like character? Who, in the late game becomes amazing with magic devices? There are always going to be a finite number of "combinations" in any game. That a few are artificially pruned is not a big deal.

Honestly, though, I expect that most of the pruning is for flavor reasons, and I am working on reducing the amount of pruning.

----- Offtopic ahead! ----

In the next version I release (date unknown), there will be a hard cap at power 100. I think that this will encourage characters to specialize sufficiently. I personally see no problem in winning the game with either of these skill sets. Some builds will require a wider array of skills than others, but sacrifice potency, which is fine.

power=93, 4 skills
Jousting          : 100%
Spell Resistance  : 100%
Weaponsmithing    : 100%
Armor Forging     : 100%

-or-

power=94, 13 skills
Swordsmanship     :  66%    (max 69%)
Clubbing          :  67%    (max 70%)
Jousting          :  95%    (max 100%)
Archery - Xbows   : 100%
Archery - Bows    :  49%    (max 52%)
Nature Lore       :  71%    (max 75%)
Magical Device    :  50%
Perception        :  82%
Stealth           :  86%
Disarming         :  68%    (max 70%)
Dodging           :  92%
Spell Resistance  :  92%
Armor Forging     :  99%    (max 100%)

[Magnate]

Sangband is supposed to be class-less, but I find that that's not true, it's still follows the same basic classes of the other bands, with the exception of maybe a few different titles. You develope burgarly skills, your called a rogue, piety skills a priest excetra. I understand the need to limit some things for balance issues, but when it comes to skills and spell realms the limitations need be removed, otherwise sang is still following a pre-constructed class based skill set.

First, Sang's author (Leon Marrick) has specifically said that he has balanced the game for characters with 6 to 10 skills, and that he has no sympathy for those playing with more.

That said, I'm an all-skill player too, though it causes terrible inventory problems.

I don't agree that Sang is following class strictures though. Of course it's possible to play as any of the six regular V classes - there would be an outcry if it wasn't - but it's also possible to play any number of other permutations: the O classes, martial artists, other-realm assassins/rogues/rangers, forgers etc etc.

CC

[Malak Darkhunter]

Sangband is supposed to be class-less, but I find that that's not true, it's still follows the same basic classes of the other bands, with the exception of maybe a few different titles. You develope burgarly skills, your called a rogue, piety skills a priest excetra. I understand the need to limit some things for balance issues, but when it comes to skills and spell realms the limitations need be removed, otherwise sang is still following a pre-constructed class based skill set.

[CJNyfalt]

I would agree, but we are probably in a minority.
The hardcore players usually discuss methods of limiting the skill selection even more.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Okay playing around with the spell realms in Sangband I noticed that once you pick a realm of magic you cannot learn spells from any other realm. But I have to ask, is this fair? The whole game is about customizing different skills,why limit a players options? I might for instance want to combine the realms of wizardry with necromancy, or maybe create a druid priest as in a priest worshipping a nature goddess sort of way. Also at one time I tried to create a type of Blackguard type character, a fighter with strong necromatic spells, but the limit on spell level without taking an oath proved to be a bummer, I ended up with a weaker character than I had imagined. Wouldn't Sang be a little more true to form without all these limitations?