Movement Speed?

[Nick]

I'm still wondering what "Movement Speed" is. I've had a character with +2 Movement speed on for some time now, and I still cannot comprehend how or what it is. I've not seen a FAQ for it. No discussion of it other than in this thread here. So... what is it?

It's like extra shots, but for movement. +1 movement speed will mean that each step you walk will take 1/2 the energy it normally does; +2 will make that 1/3. Many game mechanics don't have explicit description of how they work, just a suggestive name and the rest is for the player to discover.

[Ed_47569]

Then came plasma... <insert_eye_roll> . The fire that could over-power RFire. Because too many players were having it too easy with double-resists. Oh, and mages were too powerful, as always.

Now we have a plethora of undefensible attacks: mana, plasma, water (one of my favorites), ice, gravity, force (because that sounds so different from gravity), and of course ... Time.

I am pretty sure all of these have been in the game since 2.4 (Frog-Knows). I wonder if any of the old Warwick people who might lurk on this forum could confirm?

As for the stat-drain with elemental breaths, I remember that being a thing around version 2.5.x or 2.6.x when Charles Swiger was briefly the maintainer. I think that was removed by Ben for 2.7.x. In any case, it's so rare that it is almost inconsequential. By the time you encounter such attacks you will have plenty of options for restoring stats.

[archolewa]

Frankly, I'm not here to appease everyone and be all chummy.

Then why are you here? I understand not wanting to appease everyone, thats a fools errand. Someones going to be annoyed anout something in any group larger than 0.

But this is a forum for people to come together and discuss a game that they all love. The *whole point* is to be chummy and discuss the finer points of the game, talk about things they dont like, things they do and changes they'd like to see made (and not made) in the future, and yes even have disagreements. However, it is completely possible to have arguments without belligerence.

So if you aren't here to be chummy, I ask again, *why are you here*?

[NCountr]

I've seen some of your posts in other threads. You make some good points/suggestions occasionally. But here you really sound like a petulant child.

Nick and the others do work. You're taking shots from the peanut gallery.
Maybe take the tone down a little.

I'm still wondering what "Movement Speed" is. I've had a character with +2 Movement speed on for some time now, and I still cannot comprehend how or what it is. I've not seen a FAQ for it. No discussion of it other than in this thread here. So... what is it?

Frankly, I'm not here to appease everyone and be all chummy. I think that's how we've seen a lot of Feature Creep happen to the game over the years. Sure, I'm in the Peanut Gallery, but aside from Nick, who isn't? Nor does it invalidate some of my data points.

[NCountr]

The Mother of All Reviews

This effect only happens for powerful monsters (POWERFUL flag or spell power 80 or more), and if the damage after resistance is greater than 500, and if it passes a random roll. So a player with a single source of RCold hit by a maximum strength cold breath from a powerful monster has a one in 16 chance of DEX damage. A player with double resist has zero chance.

Incorrect. I had double-resist on at the time, so the code's broken or the algorithm is.

These happen far more often than you may think.
The stench sickens you. ... and CON goes down? Seriously?

The point is not to make semi-random side-effects for POWERFUL mobs to counter what has happened over the years to player equipment.

Nick -- you've done great work in making the dungeons more interesting. The layouts of normal levels are far better compared to what we had in 3.0. Kudos for that. The cavern and vault levels are still annoying and ought to be removed completely.

But, adding in STAT damage for powerful mobs using basic elemental attacks calls into question the whole ramification for "resists". The basic argument back in 3.x was players were having it too easy with simple resists, so double-resists were required to stave off POWERFUL mobs at that point. But then player equipment ratcheted up in power to make it easier for players to have double-resists anyway.

Then came plasma... <insert_eye_roll> . The fire that could over-power RFire. Because too many players were having it too easy with double-resists. Oh, and mages were too powerful, as always.

Now we have a plethora of undefensible attacks: mana, plasma, water (one of my favorites), ice, gravity, force (because that sounds so different from gravity), and of course ... Time.

With the exception of mana, all of those should be stricken from the game. The whole paradigm of how one poses obstacles and impediments to the progress of the character needs a huge overhaul. You should not be adding petty penalties willy-nilly to players---who, for all practical purposes, play the game in a cogent manner. Some of the mob tactics have improved to make tackling them more of a challenge, that is good. I like how you've broadened their activities; the packs of unrulings are great fun.

- While player power in general, with mob power, has been in disarray for quite some time, the point of Angband is what? To make it so a player who's trudged through 50-levels suddenly get trounced by an unexpected, indefensible attack at 3500' ? or, in the case of STAT reduction, plinked away at by those over-whelming elemental attacks? Is that how you intend to improve Angband?

For me, traditionally, Angband has been about navigating the higher mobs and uniques past 2000' to get to Morgoth and finishing the game. The life-threatening part is typically < 2000'. I think that's always been the case and I'm rather fine with that. I can start over sooner. Now, I'm wondering what sort of extra-punch the U's and D's might have that here-to-fore double-resist handled because someone, some time ago, whined that his win was too-easy and mobs should be harder. Maybe next time, tell him to put down his Mace of Disruption of Extra Attacks and play without it. Why penalize everyone else because his warrior has 8-10 swings a round (I guess more with Movement Speed bonuses now) and 1200+ health?

[sffp]

So Movement Speed still has not been clearly defined. It's still completely undocumented for a new-comer to Angband. This is a Newb Trap. It should be removed from vanilla and kicked back out to the off-shoots.

I've seen some of your posts in other threads. You make some good points/suggestions occasionally. But here you really sound like a petulant child.

Nick and the others do work. You're taking shots from the peanut gallery.
Maybe take the tone down a little.

[Nick]

Wow, we're being awful creative with the side effects of a lot of here-to-fore basic attacks.

Here's yet another example of how the Game Designers are inventing rather random fixes (impairments) in vain attempts to balance out the wrong point of the game.

The game was thrown into disarray long ago with Arrows (+3, +2) being boring. Now we've seen the culmination of this track in to ever more petty inconveniences to the player. No longer will it be perfunctory enough to have double-cold resist up (which used to be akin to Immunity). No, no, no.. now, we're going to let cold bust not only your potions .. through double resist .. and bust up your Dexterity. Newb Trap!!

Seriously?

This effect only happens for powerful monsters (POWERFUL flag or spell power 80 or more), and if the damage after resistance is greater than 500, and if it passes a random roll. So a player with a single source of RCold hit by a maximum strength cold breath from a powerful monster has a one in 16 chance of DEX damage. A player with double resist has zero chance.

The intent of this is a gentle warning to the player that taking a full-strength breath of one of the base elements from a powerful monster while singly resisting might not be a great idea.

[NCountr]

The cold seeps into your bones..

the answer is contained within your question.

Wow, we're being awful creative with the side effects of a lot of here-to-fore basic attacks.

Here's yet another example of how the Game Designers are inventing rather random fixes (impairments) in vain attempts to balance out the wrong point of the game.

The game was thrown into disarray long ago with Arrows (+3, +2) being boring. Now we've seen the culmination of this track in to ever more petty inconveniences to the player. No longer will it be perfunctory enough to have double-cold resist up (which used to be akin to Immunity). No, no, no.. now, we're going to let cold bust not only your potions .. through double resist .. and bust up your Dexterity. Newb Trap!!

Seriously?

[Sky]

vanilla = 4.1.3
off-shoots = 4.2

the answer is contained within your question.

[NCountr]

Newb Trap

So Movement Speed still has not been clearly defined. It's still completely undocumented for a new-comer to Angband. This is a Newb Trap. It should be removed from vanilla and kicked back out to the off-shoots.

[Pete Mack]

In amy case, armor weight is only important when you don't have much mana to begin with. It is 1MP for every pound over the limit. It doesn't scale with max mana

[Monkey Face]

Is it really the weight, or the type of armor? (e.g., Partial Plate vs Studded Leather?)

"The bulk of your armor restricts your spellcasting."

The messages for wearing gauntlets are clear. Follow their example if you decide to change the armor messages.

(But honestly, the vagueness of the messages adds to the mystique...)

It's the total weight of the armor. If you put on a heavy shield that puts you over the limit, you may be able to take off your cloak and be under the limit or closer to the limit so you lose less mana. (The further over the limit you are, the more mana you lose.)

[Egavactip]

As someone who shies away from technical jargon, here's my laymen understanding of movement speed vs normal speed:

Movement speed only affects how fast @ walks through the dungeon, whereas normal speed affects everything @ does from walking, to shooting, to meleeing, to quaffing. Each value of movement speed is very powerful (as I learned from personal experience when I picked up a sling with +4 movement speed):
+1 movement speed is the same as having +10 speed, except it only affects the speed at which you walk. So if you have +1 movement speed and +10 normal speed you'll walk through the dungeon at what effectively amounts to +20 speed but you'll still do all your actions (fighting, casting, activating, quaffing etc) at +10 speed.

Normal speed (or global speed since it affects your actions and your walking) stacks with movement speed. So when I found that sling with +4 movement speed I was moving through the dungeon at ludicrous speed. Faster than any amount of normal speed would be able to achieve since normal speed has diminishing returns after +28 speed. If normal speed did not have diminishing returns +4 movement speed would be said to have @ walking through the dungeon at +50 speed (assuming he had no normal speed boosts), but since normal speed does have diminishing returns +4 movement speed has @ moving at just over +70 speed.

Now here's the crazy part: since movement speed is a separate stat to normal speed they work independently of each other (ie. they stack):

That's why I thought when my @ had the +4 movement speed sling that the game was suffering a bug, because I was moving and monsters were pretty much just standing still.

If @ has + 4 movement speed and +20 speed then @ walks through the dungeon at what effectively would be a speed far greater than an infinite amount of normal speed would let you. So if @ were to walk away from a monster who has normal speed @ would move 15 squares before the chasing monster would move 1 square. If @ was running away from Sauron @ would move 5 squares before Sauron would move 1 square.

If @ moved at normal speed but had +2 movement speed and @ was running away from Sauron, then @ and Sauron would move through the dungeon at the same speed. But as soon as @ would take an action (fire a bolt from their wand, shoot a bolt from their heavy crossbow or engage in a round of melee) Sauron is going to follow @'s turn with 3 turns, because Sauron's normal speed is +20 and your normal speed is 0 and you perform one turn of actions in the amount of time Sauron is able to perform three turns of actions (or three turns of movement).

tldr: movement speed and normal speed are separate stats, the former only affects @'s speed as @ walks through the dungeon and the other affects both @'s movement and the action @ takes.

That's really useful, thanks!

[bughunter]

The message could be improved, I guess, but I don't see a good alternative to suggest.
"The weight of your armour encumbers your spellcasting"? "Your arms can move less freely for spellcasting"? "Casting spells feels more tiring with this heavy armour"?

Is it really the weight, or the type of armor? (e.g., Partial Plate vs Studded Leather?)

"The bulk of your armor restricts your spellcasting."

The messages for wearing gauntlets are clear. Follow their example if you decide to change the armor messages.

(But honestly, the vagueness of the messages adds to the mystique...)

[Grotug]

As someone who shies away from technical jargon, here's my laymen understanding of movement speed vs normal speed:

Movement speed only affects how fast @ walks through the dungeon, whereas normal speed affects everything @ does from walking, to shooting, to meleeing, to quaffing. Each value of movement speed is very powerful (as I learned from personal experience when I picked up a sling with +4 movement speed):
+1 movement speed is the same as having +10 speed, except it only affects the speed at which you walk. So if you have +1 movement speed and +10 normal speed you'll walk through the dungeon at what effectively amounts to +20 speed but you'll still do all your actions (fighting, casting, activating, quaffing etc) at +10 speed.

Normal speed (or global speed since it affects your actions and your walking) stacks with movement speed. So when I found that sling with +4 movement speed I was moving through the dungeon at ludicrous speed. Faster than any amount of normal speed would be able to achieve since normal speed has diminishing returns after +28 speed. If normal speed did not have diminishing returns +4 movement speed would be said to have @ walking through the dungeon at +50 speed (assuming he had no normal speed boosts), but since normal speed does have diminishing returns +4 movement speed has @ moving at just over +70 speed.

Now here's the crazy part: since movement speed is a separate stat to normal speed they work independently of each other (ie. they stack):

That's why I thought when my @ had the +4 movement speed sling that the game was suffering a bug, because I was moving and monsters were pretty much just standing still.

If @ has + 4 movement speed and +20 speed then @ walks through the dungeon at what effectively would be a speed far greater than an infinite amount of normal speed would let you. So if @ were to walk away from a monster who has normal speed @ would move 15 squares before the chasing monster would move 1 square. If @ was running away from Sauron @ would move 5 squares before Sauron would move 1 square.

If @ moved at normal speed but had +2 movement speed and @ was running away from Sauron, then @ and Sauron would move through the dungeon at the same speed. But as soon as @ would take an action (fire a bolt from their wand, shoot a bolt from their heavy crossbow or engage in a round of melee) Sauron is going to follow @'s turn with 3 turns, because Sauron's normal speed is +20 and your normal speed is 0 and you perform one turn of actions in the amount of time Sauron is able to perform three turns of actions (or three turns of movement).

tldr: movement speed and normal speed are separate stats, the former only affects @'s speed as @ walks through the dungeon and the other affects both @'s movement and the action @ takes.