Angband 4.2.1: First Impressions, Part 2 (Blackguard)

[Adam]

First of all I didn't even try BG yet, I don't know the exact mechanics of Whirlwind. Maybe you could make its effect scaling with the number of enemies in LoS (or adjacent to @). 1 enemy - nothing. 2 enemies - minor buff (to hit/damage maybe). 3 enemies - some low chance of stun etc... you can add more effects and increase chance of already added ones as the number goes up.
I don't know how easy it is to code this but it would open a whole lot of possibilities for fine tuning the balance.
This still would not solve the problem of standing in LoS of 2 big breathers, but maybe it gives some better ideas

[DavidMedley]

For all I know, Whirlwind could be on all the time as an ability, and I still wouldn't fight REALLY big guys two or more at once. But that way, the class would feel a little more berserk-y.

The way it is now, it's just not worth casting, especially later in the game.

While I disagree that it's never worth casting, I mostly agree. The overall mechanics of the game dictate that surviving is more important than dealing damage and escaping is cheap, easy and plentiful. Whirlwind Attack will not change those core facts. As Sphara correctly points out: it's not worth taking on more than one really big enemy at once.

We'd have to do something really crazy to make you want to stay in a situation where you're surrounded by formidable enemies, when dying is permanent and escaping is so easy. I've given this a lot of thought, believe me. Even if Whirl stunned or confused all adjacent enemies, reducing their damage output significantly, you still wouldn't stand in the middle of dangerous foes very often.

Whirl would have to do lethal damage in one turn to monsters that are a challenge for you, or it would have to paralyze (hold) those monsters. Either of those are going too far. So I think it'll have to remain a fairly niche spell that a lot of people will (wrongly) claim should never be cast.

But I'm open to suggestions.

[Cuboideb]

It could be a side-effect of bloodlust too.

[Sphara]

For all I know, Whirlwind could be on all the time as an ability, and I still wouldn't fight REALLY big guys two or more at once. But that way, the class would feel a little more berserk-y.

The way it is now, it's just not worth casting, especially later in the game.

[DavidMedley]

But, seriously, maybe you don't need the book for spells marked this way. We're already talking about bypassing the blindness check, we could bypass the inventory check, too. Retain the "have I ever learned this spell" check.

I wouldn't want this to be for all BG spells, or even for a book that's just full of physical techniques (though that's reasonable). Just the spells that seem most obviously physical. Could be used for some other classes, too.

[DavidMedley]

Making them castable blind is probably reasonable, though the next question will be "why do I need to carry the book".

Well, it is a MAGIC book

[Hounded]

Making them castable blind is probably reasonable, though the next question will be "why do I need to carry the book".

Call it an equipment set instead of a book. Concept comes easier in considering rogues ("thieves kit" or "illusionists box" as opposed to "book") but all it would require is finding the right terminology to de-bookify the BG.

[wobbly]

Making them castable blind is probably reasonable, though the next question will be "why do I need to carry the book".

[Hounded]

It's also useful vs invisible enemies. I have an inkling, but haven't really developed it or gotten feedback, of making some BG spells work even when blind or confused, and Whirl would be candidate #1.

Yes... get away from considering them all as "spells" and make them acually "skills". Increased fail rate when blind/confused bit still usable.

[DavidMedley]

It's also useful vs invisible enemies. I have an inkling, but haven't really developed it or gotten feedback, of making some BG spells work even when blind or confused, and Whirl would be candidate #1.

[DavidMedley]

There's plenty of times you have 2 or more weak monsters around you and Whirl is the right choice, if you think of it. However, these are all situations where you could probably phase away, too. So it's underwhelming, for sure. If the game didn't have unlimited cheap 0% fail phases then maybe Whirl would be more worthwhile.

[Hounded]

Whirlwind goes up to 2 blows at CL25 and 3 at CL40. That's not the kind of scaling you're looking for?

As I view it, in the latter half of the game any situation which ends with @ surrounded has already gone south. At that point my goal is to get out of the situation. If not by phase or teleport than by clearing a path by doing the greatest targeted damage- which comes from a direct strike. Doing less damage to more creatures can certainly be fun but choosing to persist in that situation offers reduced survival chances overall.

I get that we don't want to make Whirlwind a low-cost room-cleaner late in the game. Perhaps a high-mana late-game equivalent which gives you 4 & 5 blows?

[DavidMedley]

I think that some small scaling for the early spells to keep them relevant in late game would be worth looking at (Whirlwind).

Whirlwind goes up to 2 blows at CL25 and 3 at CL40. That's not the kind of scaling you're looking for?

[Cuboideb]

I think that some small scaling for the early spells to keep them relevant in late game would be worth looking at (Whirlwind) but in my case nearly every new spell was an exciting milestone.

I agree. Also for me, Venom can be improved. Perhaps releasing a poison ball on impact? For non-whirlwind hits of course.

[Hounded]

I think I have. But I'm curious to hear from other blackguard players--how many of its spells do you use at a high frequency?.

Played several BG combinations a while back and honestly loved how it transformed my playing style. I think that some small scaling for the early spells to keep them relevant in late game would be worth looking at (Whirlwind) but in my case nearly every new spell was an exciting milestone. Leap is a particular favorite for me and the Werewold/Bloodlist combination is a great experience.

Earthquake is "meh" but I have a hang-up about breaking the dungeon so that's more a prolem in my head (I almost never use Destruction either).

Honestly, after playing it I'm not sure I'd find a vanilla fighter interesting anymore.