Minor: 4.2.1 - Creeping coins values are different from real coins

[Pete Mack]

Does it matter if a hopelessly OOD copper coins mimic fails to be convincing? I mean, a player will ignore it either way...

[DavidMedley]

Because any copper at 2500ft would be a sure mimic since at that depth the minmax value for gold drop would fatally generate mithril or adamantite. The only way to fix this is to remove the min value so you can still get a pile of 10 gold (copper) instead of always 500-1000 gold.

Ah I didn't realize there is a min value. IIRC there's no max, right? 1 in 100 times the amount gets multiplied by 10 and then repeat until you miss.

[Huqhox]

Because any copper at 2500ft would be a sure mimic since at that depth the minmax value for gold drop would fatally generate mithril or adamantite. The only way to fix this is to remove the min value so you can still get a pile of 10 gold (copper) instead of always 500-1000 gold.

I can see two approaches to this

1. Accept that creeping coins are special, and if you try to generate (say) creeping copper coins at too low a level for copper piles the go pick another monster (ideally another type of creeping coin)
2. Turn it around so that when something that can be mimicked is generated (coins, potions, chests, scrolls) then do a check to see if it's a mimic and if it is make it the appropriate type. That's a bit more work but would give a good framework for adding other mimic types in V or variants

[PowerWyrm]

Why not

1. Generate monsters
2. Oh hey this is a creeping coin of type X
3. Choose a value constrained by the range that a pile of type X would contain
4. Creeping values will be indistinguishable from inert values

I'm actually going to do some tweaks to Blackguard today. I could see if I can get this coin thing right where my betters have failed.

Because any copper at 2500ft would be a sure mimic since at that depth the minmax value for gold drop would fatally generate mithril or adamantite. The only way to fix this is to remove the min value so you can still get a pile of 10 gold (copper) instead of always 500-1000 gold.

[DavidMedley]

Why not

1. Generate monsters
2. Oh hey this is a creeping coin of type X
3. Choose a value constrained by the range that a pile of type X would contain
4. Creeping values will be indistinguishable from inert values

I'm actually going to do some tweaks to Blackguard today. I could see if I can get this coin thing right where my betters have failed.

[PowerWyrm]

The thing is that creeping coins are generated by picking the monster, and then giving it an amount of gold appropriate for the level, in the specified currency. But when random (unmimicked) money is generated, the amount is decided based on the level as before, and then the currency is chosen based on the value. So if you generate creeping copper coins at level 50, they'll get a level-50-sized amount, but in copper instead of in opals or something.

Yes that is exactly the problem. To fix this properly, the type of coin should be set first and value deducted from the type. This means keeping a max value per level but removing the min value, so you can still get copper piles at high level).

[Nick]

I implemented commit 0476cd0 today and it made things far worse. Now when you dive around 500ft you see 150 coins worth of silver and 150 coins worth of mithril, and you know immediately that the former is real and the latter is a mimic. I'll revert that change, because the original system was much better.

OK, I believe you, I've done the same.

[PowerWyrm]

I implemented commit 0476cd0 today and it made things far worse. Now when you dive around 500ft you see 150 coins worth of silver and 150 coins worth of mithril, and you know immediately that the former is real and the latter is a mimic. I'll revert that change, because the original system was much better.

[PowerWyrm]

Making the game detect whether selling is on when generating creeping coins monsters would require a huge change (expensive both in coding labor and in the processing load of running the game) for little benefit.

I fixed that for my variant: it's one line of code.

[sffp]

I fire an arrow at the gazebo

[Sky]

Actually, I think the main issue here is that adamantite is the most valuable coin type, and creeping adamantite is native to DL37, so it's going to stand out. I've moved some stuff around to (I think) make the calculations more consistent, but I think there's always going to be a problem here.

i dont know why but i can tell 95% that it's a mob and not coins with just a glance. Call it magical intuition, but i can, and always do.

[Nick]

I don't see why the monster has to be upgraded from copper to adamantite or whatever. Why can't it remain copper, just 5x as many?

That's what it does, and what the original complaint is about, I think.

The thing is that creeping coins are generated by picking the monster, and then giving it an amount of gold appropriate for the level, in the specified currency. But when random (unmimicked) money is generated, the amount is decided based on the level as before, and then the currency is chosen based on the value. So if you generate creeping copper coins at level 50, they'll get a level-50-sized amount, but in copper instead of in opals or something.

[DavidMedley]

I don't see why the monster has to be upgraded from copper to adamantite or whatever. Why can't it remain copper, just 5x as many?

[Nick]

Actually, I think the main issue here is that adamantite is the most valuable coin type, and creeping adamantite is native to DL37, so it's going to stand out. I've moved some stuff around to (I think) make the calculations more consistent, but I think there's always going to be a problem here.

[DavidMedley]

This does encourage a no selling playstyle (which I support) since someone playing a no selling game can more easily determine whether it is likely a monster or not and use that in their determination as to whether or not to fight it. Increasing the gold value to match no selling levels would give the people playing with selling the advantage here. So my vote is to leave it as is.

And I like mages and hate priests so I support removing all priest spells and giving them to mages!