[4.2.1] How to figure out why am I slow?

[whartung]

On the other side of the coin, there does not seem to be any monster affects like, say, "Nausea" that consumes your food level.

The only thing I know of so far is the salt water potion, which, ideally, you don't drink blindly in combat.

[wobbly]

Yeah its tangental but I'd support the addition of something like the apparition of hunger.

[archolewa]

Yeah, having monsters who did something interesting with the food meter could help. Monsters who fill your food meter, monsters who drain it, monsters who invert the effects of food (i.e. eating decreases your satiation while the effect is active). Maybe traps that mess with your satiation. Buffs that improve or decrease depending on satiation level.

Though if we want to have buffs be effected, we would definitely need more options for decreasing satiation.

But please dont replace food with cooldown on potions. I hate cooldowns.
Having cooldowns on rods is tolerable, mostly because I use them for utility (except for rods of TO to teleport isolated monsters). But I hate cooldowns on things I use during combat.

[Hounded]

Possibly an outlier here but I like the new meter.

As a Druid I was constantly looking for food to sustain Rapid Regeneration. It took on a whole new significance for me.

As a Blackguard I ended up playing much faster and more aggressively and found myself with the "can't take another CLW potion right now" effect.

Both cases are examples of how my actual play style was adjusted. (Don't throw anything at me but) Perhaps expanding the mechanic? Half-Orcs & Half-Trolls can't touch Lembas (mentioned upthread) but aren't affected by "scrap of flesh" and get a rFear bonus from "orcish liquor" (like whiskey/wine). Hobbitses receive double nourishment from mushrooms and wine but reduced satiation from other types...

Just a thought that adding expanded food impacts to race/class selections in such fashion as to impact how we handle them would make it more relevant and interesting (for those who do not find it so at present).

[licker]

Or...

Just make it a birth option.

I still don't understand at all the issue with potions, but I guess I play the micro game because I understand how it works now.

My, again probably irrelevant opinion, is that new classes are somewhat beside the point in this discussion. If the food system is something that certain classes are supposed to interact with more than others (but it's really the rest system, not so much the food system) then perhaps it should only affect those classes.

I still don't see how anyone can really argue that the food system (or hunger if you prefer) is adding anything 'interesting' to the game. It's a mechanic which is nominally trivial to deal with, but requires a strange micro management dance to maximize. If the goal is to make an interesting system which the player must make decisions on, it has failed. Because, once you understand the system, and how/if it matters to your character, there is no longer any actual decision to make. You simply have to perform the rote actions to maximize it.

Now, those actions are not really so terrible in the grand scheme of things. Certainly past versions of Angband had other mechanics which were far more annoying to deal with. But, none the less, having to make what amount to meaningless actions everytime you return to town (or everytime you need to manage your hunger in the dungeon through your inventory) is just something I don't understand the point of.

If it's just for the sake of immersion? Then the old system was perfectly fine.

[DavidMedley]

Or...

Just make it a birth option.

I almost made a snarky suggestion like this before, but I was a bit regretful of being so snarky earlier. So, with all due apologies, why not make food a birth option? That is, set the player permanently at 50% fed, and eliminate all items that give nourishment. I wonder how many players would choose to eliminate both the oh-so-hated food meter and also Cure Wounds potions and mushrooms and such?

[Hounded]

Is there space for a haste-metabolism effect? Like with regen but without the HP gain. Another "sometimes-useful-curse-like" factor that occurs occasionally.

Thematically it might also make sense with some equipment as a "not as bad as experience drain" negative.

Extending the thought, potentially a shadow spell "Famine" which would reduce hunger meter to 5% on monsters forcing them to flee (find food) or faint (sleep)?

As a monster effect on the player that could be even more intriguing.

[whartung]

I almost made a snarky suggestion like this before, but I was a bit regretful of being so snarky earlier. So, with all due apologies, why not make food a birth option? That is, set the player permanently at 50% fed, and eliminate all items that give nourishment. I wonder how many players would choose to eliminate both the oh-so-hated food meter and also Cure Wounds potions and mushrooms and such?

I honestly don't think I'd hesitate.

The mushrooms are nice, but with inventory pressure for the "required" stuff so high as it is, there's pretty much never any room for the mushrooms for those rare points that I might want to use them.

I've eaten some off the floor for a random buff now and then, but I certainly wouldn't miss them.

In games like Nethack, etc., I've always hated the food system. As always, it's One More Way for the RNG to kill you. It's feast or famine. With permanent food in the store, now it's just Yet Another Inv slot permanently allocated.

There was a fun story about how some pranksters at Cal Tech inserted one of those tags that stores use to prevent shoplifting in to a students ID card. Simply, whenever he walked through the detectors at the door of a store, he'd set them off.

Later he was observed walking in and out of stores with his wallet over his head.

That's what the food system is, it's a bother readily overcome.

You don't even have to be paying a lot of attention to it. I tried micromanaging with the different food stuffs, trying to maximize weight efficiency per food value, etc., and it just wasn't worth it. Now I simply run around with 5 rations of food all the time, top off when I notice I'm hungry, and dump the food on the ground immediately before Recall if I find something interesting on the floor I need to take back Home.

Now, if I had a "mushroom sack" in an Inv slot that I could put some of the different mushrooms in, like a quiver? Maybe I'd carry that. Maybe.

[DavidMedley]

I honestly don't think I'd hesitate.

You wouldn't miss Cure Light/Serious/Critical Wounds potions?

[licker]

Why do you have to remove all food items?

Just leave them in the game but make the meter have zero effect no matter where it is.

That's probably easier than trying to remove the interactions of food items with the meter, but I'm no coder so I have no idea.

Or just set the upper limit on the meter to 100,000,000 or something and start characters at 50,000,000 or whatever. I suppose salt water may still be a concern, so just remove it from the game. !Death got that treatment didn't it?

[archolewa]

Slightly off topic, but I actually enjoy the food system in Nethack. I feel like its interaction with corpses, and the simulationist flavor it gives works well with the rest of the game, which really feels more like a dungeon survival game than a hack'n'slash dungeon crawl.

Angband *is* a hack'n'slash dungeon crawl though, so I understand the dislike for it in Angband.

I'd probably keep food on personally, but that's the joy of birth options. One thing I appreciate in Frogcomposband is the wealth of birth options that allow you to tailor the game to your tastes. I have no problem with Angband having a similar plethora of customizations.

[DavidMedley]

Why do you have to remove all food items?

Just leave them in the game but make the meter have zero effect no matter where it is.

Right. So we're back to "I want to chug unlimited cure potions with zero fail rate and no limiting factors beyond those that afflict all items (weight, space, cost)."

[whartung]

Right. So we're back to "I want to chug unlimited cure potions with zero fail rate and no limiting factors beyond those that afflict all items (weight, space, cost)."

Yes, I'd miss the C[LSC]W potions. I don't put them in the same category as the foods and mushrooms, though at a meta level they're all identical. Consumables that "heal" something.

And they do have a cost -- they cost time, typically when time matters. They take an action. Can't just put your finger up against the monsters bashing you and say "Hang on while I quaff 20 healing pots kthx".

That's what gives them limited utility. They're also rare (for assorted values of "rare", only CLW is effectively unlimited, but also not worth carrying) and in limited supply.

In my experience most fight as melee when I need to be quaffing healing pots, the pots barely heal enough to keep me in the game. I take them in the hope I'll get enough to get another action. Do I drink a healing pot, or blink. And it's not always obvious which is the better option at the time.

Similarly, more than once I was slamming down 1/2 dozen pots as the monster(s) were closing in on me after I blinked away getting ready for another go. I save CSW for such antics of rapid recovery. Better to buff up than stick 'em with arrows. Of course, these are the situations where you should be thinking hard about just leaving, but at the same time, you may have just arrived.

Simply, for me, the food mechanic is needless housekeeping. It's toil.

If it's meant to be a mechanic to limit healing pots, then, fine, but that mechanic doesn't seem to happen until very late in the game (apparently). Long time to drag it around. It could be mitigated by limiting the inventory of something like *Healing* pots.

[mrfy]

It's not that difficult to manage food intake. I like the new system and the variety of options that were added. I would argue against making it a birth option.

[Saru]

I think there are decent arguments for both sides. Maybe a more meaningful limiting factor on healing potions could be to temporarily reduce the effectiveness of consuming too many potions at once? Something like the first potion heals 100% of it's value, then the next 85%, etc.... That way you could down a potion or two, then have to wait a little while for their impact to go back up. Numbers would have to be tweaked, but I feel that this could reflect in a somewhat logical way how the character's body might not respond as effectively to the millionth potion within a short time.

Or, something like gradual negative effects that could build up from drinking too many potions too quickly, eg minor to severe slowing, temporary impaired hp or stats, something to represent nausea after potion overdose?

Just some ill thought out suggestions though; likely would add unnecessary complication to the development end as well.