how to dive?

[Colbey]

After spending enough time reading the forums here, and enough time crying over characters lost around 2500' and millions of turns logged, I decided to try this "fast diving" thing. So I scrapped my usual Dwarf Paladin for a Half-Troll Rogue (can't quite bring myself to be a real warrrior and give up all detection spells), and am now looking for the next stairs down as quickly as possible. I intend to be at dlvl>clvl around 9, rather than my usual 20 or more. I'm not surfacing to buy a stack of ?ID every time I run out. I'm trying every potion and scroll I find. And so on.

I tried this once and died a stupid death to a baby dragon. I'm now trying again (with no tears shed). Clearly I need to run more and melee less. But doesn't that stop working eventually? Won't I get to a depth where I'm too weak to kill anything at all? Or is there a particular list of enemies that are good to try to fight, when everything else should be avoided? I'm quite out of my element here. (My usual strategy was the same as I use on more modern console-style RPGs, that is, don't go somewhere where you can encounter things you can't kill, and level up on the weaker stuff instead first. I've never tried anything else.) So how do you level up and get drops when you're always surrounded by things you're afraid to fight?

[Edit to correct the fact that I didn't know my own race...]

[Narvius]

I usually play as mage or priest, I have never even tried a rogue, but hell.

First thing, I always take each staircase down until 1000' (dlvl 20). My mages die there, my priests survive and get better. They go to 2000' and stay there (well, if they fall through a trap door, they don't go up again). The stronger dragons (up to mature, I think) that appear are easy prey, thanks to Orb of Draining (a r-2 or r-3 ball dealing double damage to evil creature, 7 Mana). Hounds are annoying, but the lower ones (Fire, Air) are easy to kill. Beware the strong ones (Inertia, Gravity, Vibration), though. I usually stay there (usually? I've been there 2 times.) until I kill of most uniques.

I basically ignore any feelings until 2000', where I rapidly gain cool stuff. I buy all !Enlightenment I can get, but NO stat potions, as they are expensive and are often found in the dungeon. I usually carry 50-60 ?Identify, 5-6 ?WoR and all useful rods I can get (Lightning Bolt saved my hide twice).

[Pete Mack]

there are two things you need: a way to escape, and a way to do damage. If you don't have three bloews, the most reliable way to do damage is with an enchanted longbow. So buy one at cl 1, then get it to +7 damage ASAP. Also, potions of heroism help quite a bit against tough opponents.

You will also need a source of teleportation ASAP, but if you get a little lucky you can use scrolls from the BM for a while instead of a 4000gp staff.

Finally, pick your targets. For a half-Orc, a group of clear or dark hounds can get you up 4 levels in a single fight. For highbelf, replace dark with light.

[Narvius]

Oh, setting up some term windows *does* help.

Here's my layout (the inventory part is so big to cover the whole screen - I want my whole screen black when playing):



Especially monster list helps. I died twice because I thought that red 'p' is a novice mage.

[Colbey]

Finally, pick your targets. For a half-Orc, a group of clear or dark hounds can get you up 4 levels in a single fight. For highbelf, replace dark with light.

Er, apparently I misstated my own race. I'm a half-troll. What are good targets at that depth for someone without a natural resist?

[Pete Mack]

Clear hounds are still good. Electric and cold hounds are always good, since you aren't likely to
Lose really valuable inventory. And light/dark hounds are still ok if you are careful about not getting stuck playing blind-man's buff. (Fight them in hallways, etc.) just stay away from water hounds and fire hounds if you can't kill them without taking equipment loss. Losing a staff of teleportation is not something you can afford.

[Zikke]

In my experience, I found that playing in full-screen mode (not big tiles, but full screen) is super useful when you're doing detects to see most of the map. Many times I would miss important items or monsters when casting a detect that are much easier to see in the little default window size.

Although having a term list of monsters would mitigate this risk substantially.

[Colbey]

I'm playing 3.1.x, so the size of my window doesn't really affect how much I can detect. Though I do have a monster list subwindow. (Didn't know about either subwindows or the monster list command until recently, and wow does it help...)

I just got killed again by enemies that, under my previous strategy, were never strong enough to hurt me by the time I was deep enough to find them. Clearly I have yet to internalize the "run early, run often" ethos.

[Pete Mack]

run early, run often, and use a lot of archery...

[aeneas]

I'd suggest starting with a munchkin warrior. I posted a little rationale for that under another thread. Basically, playing with a warrior teaches you a lot about getting out of sticky situations, and that teaches you a lot about recognizing them in the first place. Also, warriors are simple- go down the stairs and kill stuff.

The main thing is to recognize that you will die a lot when you start learning to dive. If you try it 5 or 10 times and get discouraged because you died fast each time you miss the point. The point is to die fast many times, so that you learn to recognize what can kill you.

[Djabanete]

I'll chip in here. I play Entro and not Vanilla, but some general advice might be helpful.

You were worried that you'd reach a depth where you can't kill anything. Don't worry about that. There will always be orcs and novice mages. Eventually you get to depths where wimpy monsters give nice drops. Play smart and you can hang out WAY below dl>cl and get good stuff off easy monsters.

You ALWAYS need to be able to escape. You will have to run often. Get used to running away. Be creative. Trap doors are down staircases in disguise. A Wand of Slow Monster can save your life when you're running from a pack of monsters in a corridor.

You ALWAYS need to be able to detect things. Traps, monsters, stairs, evil monsters, objects, you name it; you need to know what's going on nearby so you can pick your fights and plan your escapes. Detect Evil becomes really useful later on.

You ALWAYS need some means of healing handy.

[aeneas]

...
You ALWAYS need to be able to escape. You will have to run often. Get used to running away. Be creative. Trap doors are down staircases in disguise. A Wand of Slow Monster can save your life when you're running from a pack of monsters in a corridor.
...
You ALWAYS need some means of healing handy.

I agree with most of that, but there are a couple of things that I think might be Entro specific that I don't find to be true in V, though YMMV. I agree you always need a means of escape, but past a very early level slow and sleep monster aren't very useful. They won't work on much, and they take too long. They are useful tactics before 1500', but not much past that. _tele is the first thing you need (and you need it till you have a lock) and ?tele, ?tele_level, -to, and *destruction* are the key item escapes.

Also, I tend to not carry healing for the sake of healing until quite late, when diving. If you're really diving you can't use up !Healing because you'll need them at the end- I tend to leave them at home so they don't get frozen. Everything below !Healing doesn't heal enough to do you much good. Curing is a different issue, and you definitely need !CCW until you have a lock.

[Colbey]

There will always be orcs and novice mages. Eventually you get to depths where wimpy monsters give nice drops.

I think that was a key point I was missing. I didn't realize monster gen worked like that. Today I looked over the shoulder of a friend at 4950', and was shocked to see, like, a pack of Half-orcs or something. I didn't know they ventured that deep! (Of course, there were plenty of flashing multi-colored Zs and stuff like that too.) So the trick is to dive and then avoid basically everything in-depth, unless you have a particular good reason to think you can handle it AND that it might drop something?

aeneas (or anyone else), what is "a lock"?

[d_m]

aeneas (or anyone else), what is "a lock"?

from context, it seems like a lock is rconfuse, rblind, etc (the things that might prevent one from reading a scroll successfully, and thus needing _teleport as an escape option).

[Pete Mack]

A lock is rconf rsound and rblind. The only one for which a staff of teleportation is required is rconf. For rblind, ESP and a wand of TA is enough. For rsoound, scrolls are always a better choice. In fact, rblind is of limited use if you have rlight+rdark. In that case there are only a handful of monsters that can blind you. I value rsound above rblind.

As for survival at 4950', yes those orcs and novice mages are important. You need to get stat potions somehow. Do stay away from the Chaos hounds.