V Mage is too powerful in the endgame.

[Pete Mack]

That makes fast cast useless unless you hockey stick. It is not giod incentivizing. On stunning and disenchantment attacks, sure. But the main problem is Mana Storm has damage way beyond any other spell. Cut its damage and mana by 40% and the problem largely goes away.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

To my mind, Mages are supposed to be super-powerful in the end-game. It is the compensation for the huge difficulty in keeping them alive to get to that point.

[Bogatyr]

To my mind, Mages are supposed to be super-powerful in the end-game. It is the compensation for the huge difficulty in keeping them alive to get to that point.

Thank you. Yes.

[Saru]

I for one agree that it both makes gameplay (balances out weak start/midgame) and logical sense for mages to be this powerful. (I mean, a mage in my mind has so much more than potential than a warrior or ranger -- hitting them with magic, or a sword / arrow. Magic seems like it should outclass these options in the end.

[Grotug]

It sounds like the bottom line here is "being able to throw out spells super quickly is OP." Which should not be surprising as we've known for years that rangers with extra shots are super-powered. To clamp down on this you'll either need to slow casting down, or make sure that mages can't sustain fast casting for long. Some possible ideas:

* Remove fast cast if the player moves for any reason.
* Spells cast under fast cast drain mana 2x (or 3x, etc. whatever feels right), and any form of mana recovery removes the buff.
* Fast cast drains X% (10%?) of your mana per turn while it is active.
* Fast casting temporarily reduces your INT (or, more mercifully, your max mana), with the amount of reduction increasing as long as fast cast is active and gradually recovering when it is not.
* The degree to which fast cast increases casting speed starts out small, increases with each turn spent casting a spell, and resets if you do any non-spellcasting action.

I think the first or last suggestion on this list are pretty appealing. #2 seems pretty reasonable as well.

I also do not like the idea of removing device skill bonus. A mage should be able to do well using magical devices (duh?). Logical support for this aside, I also prefer devices being a good way to do damage.

I can't imagine it would change the problem with Mages as it is outlined in the original post?

The first change seems like a great way to discourage Mages from using devices at all (other than as mana batteries), but their current power seems to derive more from regular spellcasting. Personally I think mages should be encouraged to use devices, but that's a personal preference. If it will affect Mages, it will be in the early game, before you can reliably run fastcast, when groups of monsters can tax your mana very heavily. If the problem is that mages are too powerful in the endgame, removing their early game crutch doesn't seem correct.

My experience playing 4.2.0 Mage was that it was overpowered across the board (early, mid, and late) game, not just late game. The recharge spell would often add 20+ charges to high value wands like slow monster.

[Bogatyr]

If fast-cast is going to be crippled in one or more of these ways, then put back in good old Haste Self as another option.

[Bogatyr]

My experience playing 4.2.0 Mage was that it was overpowered across the board (early, mid, and late) game, not just late game. The recharge spell would often add 20+ charges to high value wands like slow monster.

I see this as a reasonable mage-only benefit -- mage gets to really stuff charges into wands & staves. Nobody else can do that. Mages are masters of magical energy. The cost is the traditional mage disadvantages: terrible fighting and insta-death-vulnerable hit points.

[archolewa]

I see this as a reasonable mage-only benefit -- mage gets to really stuff charges into wands & staves. Nobody else can do that. Mages are masters of magical energy. The cost is the traditional mage disadvantages: terrible fighting and insta-death-vulnerable hit points.

Actually, rogues can do it too (recharge wands and staves). Mages are better at it, becaue I'm pretty sure they have the Greater Recharge spell, but recharge was key to my first rogue win.

[DavidMedley]

If fast-cast is going to be crippled in one or more of these ways, then put back in good old Haste Self as another option.

Fast cast is more thematic/flavorful/distinct. Better to try to fine tune it IMO.

[Bogatyr]

Fast cast is more thematic/flavorful/distinct. Better to try to fine tune it IMO.

Haste self has been a key mage spell for decades of moria/angband versions. I like the idea of fast cast, and fine tuning it is a fine idea. What I'd like to see is the effective +10 speed at a relatively low level, just like how haste self used to be. I don't like all the debuffs being discussed for fast cast. If the idea is to prevent an overpowered endgame spell, then this can be fixed by scaling down the acceleration based on player speed.

For example, if a player is at +0, fast cast should give 100% spellcasting speed increase (2 spells per turn) with no other restrictions (not losing fast case if the player moves, etc.). This gives an effect similar to haste self, but restricting the speed increase to spells.

If player speed is +40, then fast cast could give a 25% speed boost (instead of 100%). Or some other similar fall-off curve.

[DavidMedley]

Yes, I would like an "additive not multiplicative" approach for all speeds. Like, if you have double overall speed and double foot move speed, the result should be triple foot speed, not quadruple. Fast casting and shooting, too.

[DavidMedley]

This is already how overall speed works, btw. If you have a ring, boots, and a potion, all of which double your speed when used alone, you don't end up with 8x speed when using all 3.

[Bogatyr]

This is already how overall speed works, btw. If you have a ring, boots, and a potion, all of which double your speed when used alone, you don't end up with 8x speed when using all 3.

Yes, I know. It should be relatively simple to factor in spellcasting speed, since there is already melee speed and movement speed, without adding all the other discussed restrictions on fast cast.