O-Combat

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  • archolewa
    Swordsman
    • Feb 2019
    • 400

    #16
    I haven't tried this change in Angband, but I do have some experience with this dice-heavy style of damage from Sil. My experiences from there make me a bit wary of this change. The highly variable damage makes it much more difficult to properly assess risk. You could one-shot two orcs, which makes you think they're not a serious threat, and then spend five turns getting the third down to 1/4 health. In the meantime, another dozen show up and swarm you.

    Meanwhile, Angband's much more reliable damage means it's much easier to get a sense of how dangerous a given situation is.

    Highly variable damage also runs the risk of making the game feel "unfair." I don't care what the statistics say, human beings don't remember all the times they one-shotted dragons, they remember all the times they 5-shotted snagas, so having highly variable damage will frustrate people much more. It can also obscure poor tactical decision making behind luck. Obscuring poor decisions in turn makes it harder to *learn* from those mistakes and again makes the game more frustrating.

    All that said, I'm not necessarily opposed to this change if we give players the tools they need to properly assess risks. And just showing your average damage isn't going to cut it. One way to do this I think would be to make either one of the two following changes to the information displays:

    1. Rather than just showing what my average damage per round is, the game shows me a range. So instead of "5 blows doing an average of 150 damage per round" it would say "5 blows doing between 100 and 200 damage." This way I can easily decide "Ok, worst case scenario, it'll take me 20 rounds to kill that dragon. Worst case it could probably kill me in five. Maybe I need to soften it up with some more reliable damage, like spells or wands. Or maybe just avoid it. Yeah, let's do that." It also introduces a new dimension to combat tradeoffs (do I take the more reliable weapon with a lower maximum damage, or the less reliable weapon with the higher maximum damage?). And I'm all for making equipment decisions even more interesting.

    2. Monster memory shows something similar to what Brogue does. "It will take you between 5 and 20 turns to kill this creature using just melee attacks. The creature will take between 3 and 10 turns to kill you if they used only melee attacks."

    I also think this should only apply to melee. Give ranged weapons more reliable damage. Damage spikiness in ranged combat can already come from the fact that you only have a limited number of really good arrows at any time.

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    • Chud
      Swordsman
      • Jun 2010
      • 309

      #17
      Added bonuses from things like rings of reckless attacks or rings of damage are also applied to the dice rather than as straight additions, same as if those bonuses were on the weapon itself, right?

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      • jevansau
        Adept
        • Jan 2009
        • 200

        #18
        Missiles still have issues under this combat system. If you look at the damage for base missiles, it is very low compared to vanilla.
        For example with my current blackguard, with a x5 +8 +19 bow with an inbuilt full acid brand and a +5 +8 arrow, damage is 43.1 and 109.2 vs non acid resistant.
        In vanilla, it would be more than 135 and 216 (no crit allowance).

        This isn't really an issue with the higher missile types since they will be doing 3 or 4 times as much damage. I think the solution is that the base missiles should be 2dx instead of 1dx and then probably increase the damage for mithril shot.
        This does seem to be what is done in variants with O style combat to reduce the difference between standard and special ammo.

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        • Sparrow the Dunadan
          Adept
          • Mar 2019
          • 100

          #19
          Originally posted by Nick
          The birth_percent_damage option, which was kind of an experimental stub in 4.2.0, is now (essentially) full-blown O-combat. So, I'll give a brief summary of how this works.

          The quick version is that all bonuses in combat (melee, missiles, or thrown weapons) are incorporated into the dice, rather than added on afterwards. To be more precise: +to-dam, slays and brands give extra sides to the weapon's damage dice, and critical hits add extra dice, and then the enhanced dice are rolled to give the total damage. For reference, regular Angband combat rolls the dice first, then multiplies by slays/brands, then adds on the to-dam, then multiplies/adds stuff for critical hits.

          I have got this out nice and early in the journey toward 4.2.1 so people can play with it and see how it works, and I can make necessary adjustments. It is intended to lead to pretty similar difficulty of play overall, but with local differences (big-dice weapons tend to be better, slays and brands are more valuable).

          I'm keen to hear opinions
          Long time to see! I got bored, so I decided to see if there was anything new in Angband. And lo, and behold, seems like there's a new version out. So I'm playing, but I'm not sure what this new birth option is like.

          Can you give an example how this new birth option would work? Because I'm really dumb and stuff when it comes to technical jargon like this.

          Comment

          • Sideways
            Knight
            • Nov 2008
            • 896

            #20
            Originally posted by Sparrow the Dunadan
            Can you give an example how this new birth option would work? Because I'm really dumb and stuff when it comes to technical jargon like this.

            Daggers suck, maces of disruption are great, and special weapon properties like acid brand or slay undead become more valuable.
            The Complainer worries about the lack of activity here these days.

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