Making player status effects less binary

[Sparrow the Dunadan]

The PCCPFCPB-likes have melee retaliation auras which hit you when you melee them. You could expand that system out by giving a range & aura with range:0 being melee. Just a random idea.

I don't think this is a good idea, because you run across mushroom pits in the game. The last thing you need is a bunch of grey mushrooms confusing you just for being in their area of acknowledgment, on top of much more annoying magic mushrooms, and the like.

[wobbly]

But actually, imagine if Grey Mushroom Patches could lightly confuse you if you got within 10 tiles of them. Not much to impact you seriously, especially given how sparse monsters are in the early game. Maybe you go the wrong way 20% of the time. That actually sounds kinda fun.

The PCCPFCPB-likes have melee retaliation auras which hit you when you melee them. You could expand that system out by giving a range & aura with range:0 being melee. Just a random idea.

[Sparrow the Dunadan]

Personally, I think both. Whilst the messages are accurate and concise, they are rather ambiguous for players new to the game, relying on players understanding the status effect mechanics. However, I'm not sure if there is a simple fix, without adding more clutter to the messages for veteran players.

I agree for the most part. But I would disagree with you stating that the ambiguity is due to being a new player. I've played Angband vanilla for decades now, I just never needed nor bothered to delve into the mechanics until now.

I suppose a good solution would make an option available for detailed status messages to be either on or off, as part of the game's settings? That way players could choose when and if they want such messages.

[Derakon]

Would a -2 to speed be a cumulative effect so that every time you get hit by the spell your speed goes -2, -4, -6, -8 etc?

Maybe, maybe not, whatever plays well? *shrug*

[Grotug]

Would a -2 to speed be a cumulative effect so that every time you get hit by the spell your speed goes -2, -4, -6, -8 etc?

[khearn]

Khearn-
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic. You are describing PosChengband.

Nope, I'm not being sarcastic. I've never heard of PosChengband, but I haven't heard of most recent variants.

For the messages, how about something like "You feel you'll be berserk even longer."?

[Derakon]

I seem to be going against the flow here, but just wanted to say that I'm skeptical about making status effects less binary.

In my mind the main possibility produced by less-binary status effects is the ability to throw them around more frequently and in different, harder-to-avoid ways. A monster that slowed you by -10 just because you're in LOS of it wouldn't be reasonable, but one that slows you by -2 is a lot easier to contemplate. However, you'd still want monsters to be able to slow you by -10 in the same ways they currently do (by spells, mostly).

Confusion is one that I don't think really works well as a nonbinary effect, at least not in current Vanilla. But even if we did have less-vicious forms of confusion, they shouldn't apply to the Umber Hulk's melee. Its entire job is to introduce you to the problems inherent in getting chain-confused by a melee monster that you can't easily get away from. Making its confusion less bad would just lead to players learning bad habits that would get them killed later.

But actually, imagine if Grey Mushroom Patches could lightly confuse you if you got within 10 tiles of them. Not much to impact you seriously, especially given how sparse monsters are in the early game. Maybe you go the wrong way 20% of the time. That actually sounds kinda fun.

[Estragon]

This also bears on my question 1 from a few posts back - are these messages conveying accurate, or misleading, information?

Personally, I think both. Whilst the messages are accurate and concise, they are rather ambiguous for players new to the game, relying on players understanding the status effect mechanics. However, I'm not sure if there is a simple fix, without adding more clutter to the messages for veteran players.

[Voovus]

I seem to be going against the flow here, but just wanted to say that I'm skeptical about making status effects less binary.

For example, currently an early umber hulk is real terror, because of their own special confusion attack. They stand out. They get respect. They are formidable opponents without having the ability to instakill. I'd like to see more of these. But make confusion slowly build up over time, and umber hulks will just turn into an annoyance.

As another example, I find the current levels of wounds as probably the most boring of the status effects. I suspect that a rare (say, from shards only) but strong binary effect (say, losing 10% current hp/turn) would be more interesting.

[Sparrow the Dunadan]

The way poisoning works is that there is a poison counter, which is zero if you are not poisoned and positive if you are. Getting hit by a poison attack adds to your poison counter. If you are poisoned (ie positive poison counter), you lose 1HP per turn, regardless of how high the actual poison counter value is - this is what I meant by the effect being binary. The poison counter is also reduced (by an amount dependent on your CON) each turn.

So being "more poisoned" means it will take you longer to recover, not that you are taking more damage per turn. Making poisoning less binary would probably mean that you would lose more HP per turn for higher counter values, and potentially other effects.

I hope that's clear. This also bears on my question 1 from a few posts back - are these messages conveying accurate, or misleading, information?

Ah! Okay... so it works kind of like how zombie meat works in Minecraft, then.

I don't know? I mean, I don't understand a lot of the technical side of gaming, so it could be both? I mean once you explained, it made sense. But to those that don't bother to question, it could be viewed as misleading, due to the readers' lack of knowledge/understanding.

I mean I don't want to be treated as an imbecile or a raw N00b, but I do often need more personal educational explanations as tutorials and tech threads often contain verbage I'm not familiar with. (It's one of the top major reasons I've had a strong aversion to forums in general.)

[Nick]

Isn't poison already not binary though? I mean I'm getting messages when fighting spiders that I'm getting more poisoned. Am I just reading wrong, or is that a glitch/bug? (RE: 4.1.3)

The way poisoning works is that there is a poison counter, which is zero if you are not poisoned and positive if you are. Getting hit by a poison attack adds to your poison counter. If you are poisoned (ie positive poison counter), you lose 1HP per turn, regardless of how high the actual poison counter value is - this is what I meant by the effect being binary. The poison counter is also reduced (by an amount dependent on your CON) each turn.

So being "more poisoned" means it will take you longer to recover, not that you are taking more damage per turn. Making poisoning less binary would probably mean that you would lose more HP per turn for higher counter values, and potentially other effects.

I hope that's clear. This also bears on my question 1 from a few posts back - are these messages conveying accurate, or misleading, information?

[Sparrow the Dunadan]

Isn't poison already not binary though? I mean I'm getting messages when fighting spiders that I'm getting more poisoned. Am I just reading wrong, or is that a glitch/bug? (RE: 4.1.3)

[takkaria]

For 2, my opinion on this has always been that if you re-up a status while already under its effect, the duration should be re-set to the max of its current duration or the duration achieved by the spell/item you used, whichever is more. I don't like the "add 5 turns" thing because it puts the player in the position of having to guess whether they're better off waiting for the spell to expire before recasting it. I also don't like indefinitely stacking durations. While it must be said that the available buffs that can be stacked indefinitely are all pretty weak, I don't think it's great that the player has an incentive to mindlessly spam those effects in town.

Derakon, can you stop making thought-through and sensible suggestions all the time? It makes the rest of us feel bad

[Derakon]

For 1, because effects are currently binary it's reasonably clear that "more confused" or "more berserk" just means the effect lasts longer. It might not be super-obvious the first time you see the message but you'll figure it out soon enough. Of course, adding new non-binary statuses will change that, so the messages might need to be tweaked. I don't think removing them outright is a good idea though; the spell/item had some effect (of extending the duration), and that bears noting.

For 2, my opinion on this has always been that if you re-up a status while already under its effect, the duration should be re-set to the max of its current duration or the duration achieved by the spell/item you used, whichever is more. I don't like the "add 5 turns" thing because it puts the player in the position of having to guess whether they're better off waiting for the spell to expire before recasting it. I also don't like indefinitely stacking durations. While it must be said that the available buffs that can be stacked indefinitely are all pretty weak, I don't think it's great that the player has an incentive to mindlessly spam those effects in town.

[Nick]

While I'm working on it, another couple of things for consideration:

1. Currently there are messages when a player status effect increases, for example "You feel even more berserk!". My feeling is that these messages are misleading; what is actually happening is that the timer has increased, but the effect is exactly the same. Should these all just be scrapped?
2. Some effects, notably haste, have a cap on how much the timer can be extended - so if already hasted, quaffing another !Speed will only get the player 5 extra turns. For many others, though, there is no cap, so for example a paladin or priest in town can cast Bless and PfE until their mana runs out, rest, and repeat until they have enough for their entire next dive. Personally, I think the latter situation is ridiculous and all effects should be capped, but that's just me. Opinions?