"Nick is going to butcher the game"

[Philip]

Not sure what the value of having Medusa be Medusa is for people knowing what she's capable of, given that "gaze to paralyze" is an ability that monsters start having literally at lvl 1? Ranged paralysis starts at level 7 or so, and moving monsters who hit to paralyze start at lvl 15. I don't think anyone has idea of what Medusa should do beyond that.

I do love a lot of Angband's native fauna that isn't explicitly Tolkienian. I actually view it as one of the strongest lore elements of the game. But that refers to yeeks, quylthulgs, and zephyr hounds, not random garbage you could find in every other game (I am counting most of the animals between dlvls 1 and 10 into this, a lot of them are or were quite boring).
I think two things are important for monsters: that they create interesting tactical and strategic situations, and that they are internally consistent. The existence of dark elves is mutually inconsistent with the predominant Tolkien theme of the game, and the presence of Eol and Maeglin. The presence of yeeks and quylthulgs and zephyr hounds is not inconsistent with anything, which is why there's nothing wrong with them staying.

[wobbly]

Not being much of a lore buff I don't know much about stonefoots and blacklocks but I do know what a dwarf looks like and I read the descriptions if I see something new.

I'm not convinced generics are that great for immersion. Ogres, dark elfs, snakes... all these things are very bland. The humble yeek with no mythological connection is much more colourful.

Kitchen-sink done well tends to be much more zany. Your not just fighting ogres (snore) and giant snakes (zzz...). Your fighting Grendel and Tonbery Ninjas and Ruskullas. Generics are fine at being generic but I don't think they do wonders for pulling a person in. I could pull a whole bunch of quotes from other rogue-like sites talking about the blandness of Vanilla Angband.

I think theme done well is imersive and kitchen sink done with enough zaniness is immersive. I don't think bland generics do a whole heap of good. Not for me anyway, others I'm sure have different tastes.

[Sideways]

I would like to speak of resonance.
One of the advantage of some of the more DnD and mythology based monsters is that when a new player sees them, they instantly know what it is that they are encountering. Anyone who has played Dungeons and Dragons, Everquest, Elder Scrolls, or Warhammer, or who is familiar with Norse mythology is likely to have a good grasp of what they are looking at when they see a creature named "Dark Elf Archer", even if the dark elf in question doesn't quite mesh with the Tolkien dark elves.

There's a theory, though, that the dark elves (and/or black elves) of Norse mythology are really just another name for dwarves...

[Rydel]

Before Nick closes the ticket, I thought I'd pop in. Although I don't agree with the position, I feel like a large part of problem with Tangar 's position is that it was poorly argued and thought I might take a crack at it.

I would like to speak of resonance.
One of the advantage of some of the more DnD and mythology based monsters is that when a new player sees them, they instantly know what it is that they are encountering. Anyone who has played Dungeons and Dragons, Everquest, Elder Scrolls, or Warhammer, or who is familiar with Norse mythology is likely to have a good grasp of what they are looking at when they see a creature named "Dark Elf Archer", even if the dark elf in question doesn't quite mesh with the Tolkien dark elves. You can't expect the same level of built-in knowledge with some of the more obscure bits of the legendarium - many players aren't going to know who the Stonefoots or the Blacklocks are.
The monsters from Greek mythology have a similar built-in understanding. Through cultural osmosis, most players will have some idea of who Medusa is and what she is capable of, even if they aren't familiar with the story of Perseus.

By avoiding these cultural touchstones, less experienced players will have a harder time pulling these creatures in to the theater of the mind, reducing immersion.

[GeoffHill]

Back when Angband gained its lore (see my post somewhere above) there was indeed some inherent problems with d and d lore Vs Tolkien lore. Being a Tolkien nerd I kept quiet and let people leave a lot of things in that they found fun. Also a lot of items came from the ICE middle earth books so are Tolkien but not canon. Given the haphazard way that these things were included I see no reason not to tidy them up and make it thematic. It seems sensible to rename odd creatures but keep the game mechanics. For example player races can keep the idea but renamed.

[Nick]

+1 for being able to install Linux when playing Angband

I kid you not, at one point I had a plan to make a Linux distro (sort of - SUSE had a thing called Studio where you could kind of set up your own distro using their packages) optimised for Angband. Luckily someone suggested at about that time that I should be V maintainer, and Angband Linux was stillborn, unmourned.

Sorry, I just had to respond there. Maybe I'll close the thread tomorrow.

[Sideways]

Closing threads sends a clear message that the discussion is over, and that any attempt to restart it in another thread would be viewed rather dimly. If the consensus is that this thread is now completely bereft of merit (or even that whatever merit it has is grossly outweighed by its costs, in terms of damage to the community), then it should be closed. I would certainly support closing it. That said, I'm not a moderator, I don't want to be a moderator, pretty much exactly because of this kind of situation. I'd absolutely understand if you didn't want to take that step.

tangar, you should consider this mission completed, one way or another, so please stop trying to convince anyone. Those that disagree with you are not going to change their minds. All you can accomplish at this point is damaging your social standing.

I would definitely support closing the thread. It has outlived its usefulness (if it ever had any), and closing it would be a more genteel move than banning tangar outright.

[Adam]

tangar is not abusing anyone, how could u seriously talk about banning him make no sense

I don't know about other people, I lost interest in what he (she?) is saying a month ago. I know we are different but for me the 'I suppose most of the V-players would support anything what Nick's doing, like lemmings.. and if he would say "Jump from the cliff, fools!".. they would jump' message part was the point after which I couldn't take him seriously.
He is saying he is too old to learn new stuff but still behaves like a 5 years old child in my opinion. What he thinks is the truth and anyone not agreeing with him is idiot ('The goal of this discussion is to show that there are people who cares about Vanilla and it's lore and to spread the truth').
I think Nick was patient enough with him.

[PowerWyrm]

+1 for being able to install Linux when playing Angband

[Pahasusi]

tangar is not abusing anyone, how could u seriously talk about banning him make no sense

this is the best and most passionate thread i seen on oook in almost ten years,

by no means bereft of anything

ppl saying download and play old version havnt read or refuse to understand the other point of view

I have read and understand Tangar's and your point of view - but I disagree with it, because it has no merits and is poorly argued. I suspect it might be the same with others.

Angband has always evolved. It will continue to evolve.

You are arguing that by evolving beyond certain point, Angband stops being Angband. Tangar has used eloquent reasons, like his/her personal experience of learning about other fantasy worlds in the game, about Angband being educational experience etc.

Those are all valid points from *his personal point of view*, but a large group of people have disclaimed the validity of his claims in the context of *Angband the game*. I'm one of those people.

Angband is not a game with specific content. It is rather a game with specific intent.

The intent of the game is not changing, even if the content of the game evolves.

If you are not happy with the contents of some specific version of Angband, don't play it, play the other version.

Angband is not like what Sony did with Playstation 3: On one version, you could install linux. Then they took this option out. Here, you always have the option of playing the version of Angband you like best.

[Wiwaxia]

I have no horse in this race, I'm not particularly interested in V, but realtalk this kind of aggressive, knock-down, drawn-out argument is really not good for a community. I've done it before, honestly much worse than tengar; I know it's kinda righteously fun when you're doing it and I know it can feel like the only recourse when you disagree with someone with more power in a forum and aren't being listened to. I know it can feel like there's things coming up that wouldn't have come up otherwise. But there's way too much collateral damage. Constant arguing fucks people up. A lot of people will just quietly disengage and leave, and the ones that stay will get embattled and defensive. I'm still learning how to think without assuming someone will challenge me on anything I thing and preemptively preparing a battery of arguments to shut them down. It is really, profoundly, unhealthy. I hurt a shitload of other people in the process, too, in a way that can't really easily be fixed.

This isn't the kind of passion I want to see in a community. This is the kind of passion that eventually makes people into vicious, petty assholes whether they want to be or not. If you're upset and feel powerless, I get it, that's legitimate, but I have learned the hard way that a never-say-die brawl to the bitter, bitter, bitter end is a really bad response to unfairness in a forum. I know it can feel like you're saving a community from injustice, but a community is other people.

I don't have anything pithy to close on. I don't want to overstate how bad this thread is, I don't think it's going to blow up the community on it's own or poison everyone. It's not the end of the world and nobody is in here causing the apocalypse. Just, it's not a good thing and I hope it doesn't become a pattern.

[dos350]

tangar is not abusing anyone, how could u seriously talk about banning him make no sense

this is the best and most passionate thread i seen on oook in almost ten years,

by no means bereft of anything

ppl saying download and play old version havnt read or refuse to understand the other point of view

[Derakon]

Closing threads sends a clear message that the discussion is over, and that any attempt to restart it in another thread would be viewed rather dimly. If the consensus is that this thread is now completely bereft of merit (or even that whatever merit it has is grossly outweighed by its costs, in terms of damage to the community), then it should be closed. I would certainly support closing it. That said, I'm not a moderator, I don't want to be a moderator, pretty much exactly because of this kind of situation. I'd absolutely understand if you didn't want to take that step.

tangar, you should consider this mission completed, one way or another, so please stop trying to convince anyone. Those that disagree with you are not going to change their minds. All you can accomplish at this point is damaging your social standing.

[Nick]

Could this thread maybe be closed?

I don't think we are going to get much more value out of it.

A.

It could, but I'm reluctant to close it because

1. I don't like any closing down of discussion and
2. I think this sort of discussion would just move to a new thread; if this one is still here then it might keep this from spreading to other threads.

If you have a more specific reason for wanting it closed, let me know, by PM if you wish.

[Antoine]

Could this thread maybe be closed?

I don't think we are going to get much more value out of it.

A.