Stun Resistance vs. Damage against Morgoth

[AndyS]

Hello all.
After a couple of dumb losses (aren't they always in retrospect?) I'm almost ready to dive to 100 with my warrior character again. I've been gifted just about everything this game, if I can't win with the kit I have I can't win period. I'm actually not much more powerful now than I was 5 CLs ago (I'm CL 49 now) just more HP. I didnt have enough consumables then though or I would have dove, and I have no greater number now because fighting all of the uniques between then and now keeps them at about the same amount every time I clear a level. I guess the positive side of that is that I wont be seeing them during the fight.

I've beaten Sauron 3 or 4 times now and I have to say each time was surprisingly easy. Ive had much more difficulty with other uniques in past games. But each time I would do something stupid like fight Morgoth somewhat drunk (Im not proud), or decide I was sick of TPing away the Terrasque and completely underestimating his speed and letting him get 2 breath attacks in a row. I never really dug into the nuts and bolts of the damage or speed stats. Another thing I never did was use resist potions, I had resistances, i didn't appreciate how important the other buffs were. Ancalagon also gave me a lesson on that. So I have been smarter and definitely luckier with drops this game.

I dont think I have adequate consumables from what Ive read. People talk about needing dozens of them, seems a bit excessive (says the guy who always loses). I have 7 *healing*, 4 rods of healing, 4 Life, 3 healing, and only 6 CCW (that one definitely is worrisome to me). I have 6 mass banishment, no shortage of *destruction*.

So I guess I have 2 questions. Is that a realistic amount of consumables? I understand there are no guarantees and I guess it sounds like I need my hand held but is that even in the ballpark of consumables? I can stop fighting uniques and focus on gathering them if not but it gets boring I have 1k+ HP and around 220 AC depending what I wear. Nobody I have fought has been a challenge for a long time, but I know I have to be careful vs Morgoth and not just keep hitting him and repeatedly whacking the space bar like last time. A couple of mana storms and im toast.

And finally to my original question, sorry for the long digression. Damage vs stun resistance. How important is stun resistance against him? How reliable is it? My sustains are all covered, and the necessary resistances. I have nenya but I havent been using it. If I swap out my damage ring for nenya, I gain stun resistance but my damage vs evil drops from 699 to 642.

Is that a good swap? I guess if I choose the damage over stun protection I will need a lot more CCW. But it's hard to stay at 99 long enough for the stores to regenerate them without using consumables.

That's way too long, I apologize, but on the other hand I first played this game in the 90s and Ive never won so I allowed myself a 5 minute post Thank you for any advice.

edit - one more question. Im a little confused about speed. I can fight morgoth with 30 or 31 (with potions of course) , i forget what resistance i would lose but it's not a crucial one. Deos 31 give you an edge against him, or does it just mean each 30 turns you would get an extra? That wouldnt be significant I dont think.

[Derakon]

Your consumables are fine, though if you aren't playing no-recall then I'd get more CCW, just for clearing status ailments. You also want a lot of Phase Door. 700 damage vs. evil is also more than enough.

Stun protection is not mandatory by any means. You may well get stunned during the fight, and you want to clear the status ASAP not just because of the long-term risk of being knocked out, but because it makes you considerably worse at combat. Given your choice I would go with the extra damage over the stun protection.

Your estimate of the value of speed is basically accurate. The actual math is considerably more fuzzy. But you need +30 speed to guarantee that Morgoth cannot double-move you, which is important because if he double mana storms you you're almost certainly dead. More speed gets you the very occasional double move against him, but that's less exciting since you have no equivalent to a double mana storm to use against him.

[AndyS]

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Thanks very much, I really appreciate it It shouldnt be too hard to gather another 10-20 !ccw and then go with the damage, cheers

[AndyS]

One more question! Probably obvious but you never know. Morgoth's earthquakes. If I understand you destroy rather than fight him in an anti-summoning tunnel because you need space to dodge those. I guess if you leave a square and Morgoth fills it with a summons you can't dodge right?

[Philip]

Mostly you don't fight him in an anti-summoning tunnel because he has kill_wall and will not be kind enough to follow you into the tunnel, so destruction is the best way to limit LoS. I'm not actually sure how earthquakes treat monster-occupied spaces, but it probably won't be relevant too often, since usually when you're surrounded you'll want to be phasing away. If you're surrounded with weak monsters, they're more valuable as summon prevention than they would be as earthquake defense, so keep them around anyway.

[AndyS]

Ah, very good points, cheers

[AndyS]

Chicken dinner thanks for the pointers.

I hope this doesn't sound arrogant especially when people here beat him routinely. I know it is the luck of the drops and what he casts. But he was really easy. All those games I slunk around on 99 only to get fried by something else seem like a waste of time now. But my gear was ridiculous. When you can afford to drop narya and venya the game has been good to you. There were a lot of games that weren't so generous though so I dont feel too guilty. But I think anyone could have won with my kit, it wasn't expertise.

I was worried that I would need more than my 3 !speed and 3 *destruction* but it was a very short fight. I only had to TO him away once when there were some powerful breathers, the rest of the time I ignored the summons, if I used a phase door or mass d it wasnt more than one.

If I dont die early, like make it to 40, ill usually make it to 99. But then do something stupid. Im going to go right after him from now on. Problem is I dont like playing the same game twice. I could try different characters I guess. The first time I played all those years ago I played exclusively as a mage or a ranger. That was usually my choice of play style in games, pick away from a safish distance. Maybe because Im getting old I feel there is more urgency now and I dont like the time invested in that anymore.

So, and now I know I sound arrogant after only one win, but iron man it is Not saying I can do it but doing the same thing twice isnt for me so I welcome the challenge. Hope it doesnt take me another 25 years, I dont think I have that many left.

[Derakon]

Congrats on the win! Morgoth can definitely be anticlimactic; it really depends on what he decides to do. If he summons or manastorms a lot, that's a much different fight from if he casts lots of resisted Brain Smashes. But even if he does pull out all the stops, the player is also pulling out all the stops, and all those too-rare-to-use consumables really make a big difference in how hard the fight is. You could well find that a Sauron fight where you only let yourself drink a single Healing potion is harder than a Morgoth fight where you let yourself drink every potion in your backpack and use all those Banishment and Destruction scrolls.

Good luck with ironman!

[AndyS]

Thanks Derakon Yes the dice fell my way forsure, it was a rare dive where everything went right.
My turns were 74276 but I think i could have shortened that by about 30k if I wasnt so scared of the endgame.

I dont have any illusions about ironman, it will take many tries. But I'll do it.

[MattB]

Congrats Andy!
And 74k turns is fast.

Here's to the next 25 years!