Newbie Post - see inside for new depths of ignorance!

[roustk]

In any case, a number of the mid-game hound packs give a strong incentive to deny them a chance to spawn, which means playing for speed is somewhat necessary starting ~DL30.

There is some truth to that, but plenty of people are putting up 10M turn wins with casters so it isn't totally unreasonable. My Half-Troll Mage win was 7M turns, 80x24 screen, clearing complete levels, and nearly never fleeing levels. And years ago I had priests resting for pseudo at hound depths, some of which became winners.

I need to play more fragile casters to have a better sense of how things fall apart for those types. But it seems that players at CL>DL pace should be in adequate shape.

[zaimoni]

It is also incredibly important for warriors. If you aren't playing for speed, casters can rest and redetect with little worry.

In the early game. Nexus Hounds are the earliest hound packs that are "flee-level". (They wouldn't be if there was any reasonable chance of RNexus.) In any case, a number of the mid-game hound packs give a strong incentive to deny them a chance to spawn, which means playing for speed is somewhat necessary starting ~DL30.

[zaimoni]

When you say, "They do." do you mean that purists consider it cheating?

The difference between exploiting a perceived interface bug (whole-screen detection), and outright cheating (say, savescumming), is fairly minor on USENET.

My attitude is that as long as the usage is consistent, even fairly outrageous abuses that respect permadeath are simply "unenforced ironman/munchkin options". Just don't actually claim a win with at least one munchkin option.

That said, I don't think whole-screen detection is game-breaking (either too easy or too hard).

..., but I also have to disagree with zaimoni about the effect on game balance. It REALLY does help to be able to see every monster and object on the level. Of course, I still die a lot because I take risks, so maybe it's not so bad.

Merely knowing where every monster is on the level, doesn't help me that much. Intentionally not triggering Hounds, or passwall/killwall monsters, by walking just outside their telepathy radius does help moderately, but that requires knowing the monster telepathy radii one way or another. (Assumed: a proper Death Bow has been enchanted.)

I think combining complete detection with disconnected stairs helps to alleviate the stair-scumming that would likely result otherwise.

My experience is that stair-scumming doesn't automatically result with connected stairs. (Then again, the fact it only takes one turn to use the stairs suggests they aren't that physical....) That requires a working (customizable) level feeling system; the current one works only as a cash-on-floor estimator in the early game.

Having to constantly check to see if that hard-to-see "DTraps" has appeared again at the bottom of the screen is a show-stopping error, IMO. I will NEVER EVER EVER play with trap detection working like that. Ever.

Somehow I doubt "easier to see" would be a complete solution. (But then, I don't have a good visual on what a complete solution would be.)

[DireWolf]

Nice post Marble Dice (the big one) . Thanks for the additional insights, guys!

As far as the detection goes, that probably should have been a fixed radius since day one, but I would guess that they never really imagined the amount of porting which would be done to the code. I would like to see that change done. It makes is alot easier to balance and to make subtle tweaks to the game if those kinds of things are fixed, and preferebly loaded from a text file! As a former game tester, I hate hard coded values witha a passion! Its so much easier to balance when you don't have to wait for the next build, and I believe exposing the internals to tweaking is the best part of open source.

BTW when you factor in cost, don't forget the inventory slot! A warrior has to use alot of space to duplicte the abilities of the spellusers. For that reason it would be nice if the scrolls/devices are not underpowered vs the spells...

[Marble Dice]

Yeah, he's saying that detecting the entire dungeon floor at once with a level 1 mage spell is exploitive to the point of cheating, which is why it's been fixed in the upcoming 3.1.

I think light, line-of-sight, ESP, and the various kinds of detection should have boundaries, my only problem was that for detection, those boundaries were asymmetrical to the point of handicap and based on a user-configurable setting. Whether or not those boundaries are balanced appropriately for the different kinds of abilities and for the different classes, I can't really say.

Detection (Detect Monsters, Evil, Invisible, Magic Mapping, Hidden Doors/Traps) is limited in range and frequency (you have to re-cast the monster spells), but is readily available from the beginning of the game (low level scrolls, staves, rods, and spells). This forces you to balance safety (frequent detection) vs cost (be it gold, time, or using too much mana only to realize you've got a fight coming down the hallway).

ESP is more uncommon, and also limited in range and the kinds of monsters it reveals, but it features a high frequency - if you know something's near, you know where it is at all times.

Higher level detection abilities combine the different domains for more convenience and efficiency but similar range and frequency limitations. The high-level priest spell Clairvoyance and !Enlightenment are the rare "golden-bullets" of detection which show you all static dungeon features, everywhere.

I think, undeniably, setting a hard, symmetrical limit on detection abilities is the right decision. Perhaps from this point, some of those abilities could be re-balanced, maybe the range is too short, maybe the interface needs more features to make it easy, maybe the monster spells should last for a few turns, maybe warriors don't have enough to make up for their (intentional) lack of detection. I wouldn't really know, I don't play classes that don't get detection.

[roustk]

but I also have to disagree with zaimoni about the effect on game balance. It REALLY does help to be able to see every monster and object on the level.

It is also incredibly important for warriors. If you aren't playing for speed, casters can rest and redetect with little worry. Warriors however have to rely on consumable scrolls and staffs for detection for the early game. Big screen effectively cuts the price of mapping and detection by a factor of at least 4.

[Zero]

They do. V SVN has explicitly fixed the size of detects.

Never mind that this is the one "exploit" that doesn't measurably affect game balance. (It did not rate mention in the V3.0.0 changelog, and got absolutely no negative PR under Robert Ruehlmann; all GUI ports have it.)

When you say, "They do." do you mean that purists consider it cheating? I'd never thought of it as cheating, but I play on a screen big enough that I can see the entire dungeon without any scrolling, so magic mapping + Rod of Detection shows me every detail of the entire level. I like it because this way I don't have to cast multiple detection spells every 3 seconds, but I also have to disagree with zaimoni about the effect on game balance. It REALLY does help to be able to see every monster and object on the level. Of course, I still die a lot because I take risks, so maybe it's not so bad. I think combining complete detection with disconnected stairs helps to alleviate the stair-scumming that would likely result otherwise.

What would be great is if detection effects had a time duration, so as you walk around you can see stuff that comes within a certain radius of the player, without having to constantly cast detection. Detect Monster should work similar to ESP. I tried the SVN build, but HATED it and went back to the stable version because of the way that trap detection works. Having to constantly check to see if that hard-to-see "DTraps" has appeared again at the bottom of the screen is a show-stopping error, IMO. I will NEVER EVER EVER play with trap detection working like that. Ever.

[momo125]

Stone to mud only wakes fewer monsters than tunneling because it only uses 1 turn. It may seem like tunneling goes fast ( with good Stg and shovel) but you tunnel for several turns.
If you are casting the spell and keep resting for more mana the results might be the same.

[zaimoni]

Not much for this other than lots of detection. On some platforms (Windows) you can increase the screen size in the angband.INI file (notably the vertical dimension) so you can see more of the dungeon at once. Detect magic is based off of the size of the screen, so you'll detect more efficiently too. I'm not sure if this is considered "cheating" from the perspective of obtaining a clean win, but I expect purists would turn up their nose at it. The asymmetrical dungeon window size has always bothered me - you're 50% more likely to die from the North or the South!

They do. V SVN has explicitly fixed the size of detects.

Never mind that this is the one "exploit" that doesn't measurably affect game balance. (It did not rate mention in the V3.0.0 changelog, and got absolutely no negative PR under Robert Ruehlmann; all GUI ports have it.)

Summoning is a gamble that I never bother with. I sometimes carry a clone monsters around if I have the space, for duplicating creeping coins of various varieties to get the cash drops. This is only mildly useful during early-to-mid game, since higher cash payouts at deeper levels will quickly eclipse this exploit.

As long as a melee-optimized character has enough escapes, Summoning can make sense from CL5 through calculated summoning level 20 or so. [Phase Door Is Not Enough: summon Mughash+escorts or Boldor+Master yeek escorts both require immediate action.] [Melee-optimized := 4 attacks/round with a +9-dam weapon.]

[Marble Dice]

This is misunderstandable too. Who wants to loose artifacts when leaving a level? :P

People who want to make the game more challenging by enabling a difficulty setting.

This is a difficult option to name because it has two implications: one, unidentified artifacts are lost forever, and two, artifacts always generate a special feeling.

1) Monsters spawn randomly in dungeons after a while.

Correct - and they're usually (always?) awake when they spawn, so it's usually more dangerous to stay on the current level than to proceed to the next level. Monsters (townspeople) will also spawn in the town.

2) Detect monsters detect all but invisible monsters.
3) I don’t really need Detect evil if I am detecting monsters.

Just to re-iterate and summarize, Detect Monsters will show you non-invisible monsters for one turn. Detect Evil will show you all evil monsters (invisible or not) for one turn. There's also a Detect Invisible spell which will show you all invisible monsters for one turn. Possessing "See Invis" (such as from gear or being a high elf) does not permit Detect Monsters to detect invisible monsters for you.

4) Slay animals affects creatures with the natural flag.

Correct - and it inflicts x2 damage, unless a higher multiplier is also applicable, in which case the highest will be used.

Ranges of monster attacks – breath, arrow, spell, etc… I am tired of being killed by ‘It” outside of my LOS… Also, I need to know when to phase door to avoid the gaze/breath etc..

Not much for this other than lots of detection. On some platforms (Windows) you can increase the screen size in the angband.INI file (notably the vertical dimension) so you can see more of the dungeon at once. Detect magic is based off of the size of the screen, so you'll detect more efficiently too. I'm not sure if this is considered "cheating" from the perspective of obtaining a clean win, but I expect purists would turn up their nose at it. The asymmetrical dungeon window size has always bothered me - you're 50% more likely to die from the North or the South!

Any use for staff of summoning/Summon Monster/clone monster? Is there an easy kill with good drops that I could be cloning early in the game?

Summoning is a gamble that I never bother with. I sometimes carry a clone monsters around if I have the space, for duplicating creeping coins of various varieties to get the cash drops. This is only mildly useful during early-to-mid game, since higher cash payouts at deeper levels will quickly eclipse this exploit.

Dungeon feeling for next level works only after 100 turns on previous level, correct? So I should always rest for 100 turns before descending if I can so I get an accurate feeling?

If you even care about the feelings, that is. Unless you're playing without preserve mode (when unidentified artifacts are lost), you're usually better off just diving or exploring a little bit for the easy pickings, and moving on. If you're a compulsive floor-clearer, then the level feeling doesn't matter much either, since you'll see everything anyway.

What about auto-scumming levels?

It's fine if you want to, but I never bother. I find more often than not levels with good feelings are just a pain in the ass because there's larger quantities of more difficult monsters.

If a level is superb, and I find an artifact on the floor, should I stick around to look for other stuff? I tend to think it would be unlikely for a level to have two artifacts on the floor, but I defer to experience…

I've definitely found multiple artifacts on the floor of a single level, but it usually involves vaults. Again though, if you're playing with preserve, it doesn't really matter if you miss an artifact early on. Once you get !Enlightenment, the priest spell Clairvoyance, or the mage spell Detect Enchantment, you can just hit all of the object types on the floor that might be artifacts you're interested in (long swords, crowns, etc).

I have read posted that Rings of Protection are useless. What is a good AC to have? Should I bother to bump everything my Mage wears to +9 (no gloves obviously), or skip armor altogether and select only for resitances?

You should almost never take AC over useful resistances or abilities. If you've already enchanted your melee weapon (for melee classes) and ranged weapon (for most classes) up to (+9,+9) and you've got the cash to blow, you can spend a little bit of money on enchant armor. I wouldn't go much above [+5] though, especially on things which aren't immune to acid, since the success rate is much lower at higher bonus values, and acid damage is common and will reduce your hard-earned armor bonuses. Rings of Protection can be nice if you find them early, but they're usually trumped by Rings of Damage, Rings of Constitution, or Rings of Speed.

Should I delay killing treasure dropping Uniques or take them as soon as I think I can? (I kill Grip and Fang for the XP pretty early) Is it better to kill them at deepest level you can get to or find them on? Will they stop showing up if I go too deep? (I haven’t seen Bullroarer lately…) Do they drop better artifacts at lower levels?

Monsters drop items based on a calculation of their usual level, and the current dungeon level, so they can drop better stuff on deeper floors. It's probably not worth "saving" uniques unless they've got exceptional drops (like Wormtongue). I don't think they ever stop appearing, but they will become much less common. Some enemies can summon uniques, and uniques can sometimes appear in summon undead, summon dragons, summon animals, etc, if they fit the monster type.

Should I turn the hide worthless items option on? What is it hiding? (Okay, this was just pure curiosity )

I'm not sure... but I think it hides the cursed items (amulets of teleportation and DOOM, rings of aggravate monsters, etc) and also the "bad" consumables (mushrooms of poison, potions of confusion, scrolls of darkness, etc). I don't use it because I'm not sure if it will auto-squelch !Death, and I'm afraid I'll try to quaff a potion from the floor only to find a squelched death was in the first floor slot, unknown to me...

And, finally...

RTFM.

(Just don't reply with TLDR!)

[DireWolf]

And this seems to be a classic case of correcting someone's grammar with poor spelling!

Guilty! Still waiting for forums to have a integral spellchecker! But lets not bicker and argue about "who killed who".

This is misunderstandable too. Who wants to loose artifacts when leaving a level?

You want to be able to lose artifacts which you intentionally drop and not have them put back on the list and be dropped later, since they cannot be destroyed by 'k'. Having artifacts resurface would be frustrating as hell - for a game already high on the frustration level!

[Narvius]

"Not taken items disappear forever", probably?

[Mondkalb]

... The new wording reads: "Lose artifacts when leaving level". I hope one finds that satisfactory.

This is misunderstandable too. Who wants to loose artifacts when leaving a level? :P

[takkaria]

I don't want to sidetrack this on the Preserve issue, but this seems to be a classic case of programmers never having taken a grammer class!

And this seems to be a classic case of correcting someone's grammar with poor spelling!

I have programmed some myself, and it seems like for clarity the Option description should be "Preserve unidentified artifacts when exiting level" and the flag should simply be "birth_preserve" and most people will set it to YES (default). This is in contrast to the current "Don't preserve artifacts when leaving level" and the default NO for the "birth_no_preserve" flag. I had to read it a few times, then was more confused by the fact that I still get superb feelings on some levels, which reading had lead me to believe woiuld not appear. So, I just have my fingers crossed that I am not missing out on great stuff when I descend into a room of nether hounds and have to flee back upstairs.

I likes English more'n Math 'cause you can learns it gooder.

I would regard my English as being really quite good, at least the large majority of the time—that particular option was a slip-up, a mistake, and it is rectified in the development version. Indeed, the reason it was changed was so that "off" could be the normal state of the difficiculty options, in order that new players would know that any "ons" would increase difficulty, rather then vice-versa. The new wording reads: "Lose artifacts when leaving level". I hope one finds that satisfactory.

[DireWolf]

I don't want to sidetrack this on the Preserve issue, but this seems to be a classic case of programmers never having taken a grammer class! I have programmed some myself, and it seems like for clarity the Option description should be "Preserve unidentified artifacts when exiting level" and the flag should simply be "birth_preserve" and most people will set it to YES (default). This is in contrast to the current "Don't preserve artifacts when leaving level" and the default NO for the "birth_no_preserve" flag. I had to read it a few times, then was more confused by the fact that I still get superb feelings on some levels, which reading had lead me to believe woiuld not appear. So, I just have my fingers crossed that I am not missing out on great stuff when I descend into a room of nether hounds and have to flee back upstairs.

I likes English more'n Math 'cause you can learns it gooder.