I want more hitpoints

[debo]

TC might also want to try Sil -- it removes basically all of the randomness from progression, and pushes it into the combat mechanics instead

[Nick]

Thank you, that was very entertaining.

One of the things being examined for 4.2 is the player - classes, races and other properties. While I'm probably not thinking of implementing your suggestion, don't think you haven't had any impact - I'm now less inclined to make the early game harder

Angband attracts a certain type of masochist. We feel your pain, but in some way it also validates our choice of pastime. It is a pretty brutal game, and on the whole we want to keep it that way - in the long run, it makes it more satisfying to finally win. Keep trying, keep telling us what you think - it's really important that we don't only hear from experienced players - and thanks again for the rant

[Sky]

right now i'm beating myself up for having ever typed MAGE in this thread.

rogues have the same issue. WARRIORS have the same issue. if your only game is bonking mobs on the head and you roll three 1s in a row your character is not worth spending any more time on.

but this argument isn't worth pursuing anymore because everyone here has the same attitude that i see in quake, cs, and every other game where people have played for 20-odd years "i have the game down to a science therefore anyone who doesn't have years to spend on it is a noob and an idiot".

follows list of specifics which is basically the only way to survive with a mage.

hey, but what if someone buys, i don't know, a helm, a shield, and some boots? you know, things which are sold in town and a reasonable player at their first, or tenth, attempt would consider as good starting gear?

no, they need to bleed until they learn to adapt to a game so unforgiving, it's often quoted in name as the very definition of "a hard game".

"angband has had a power creep up"
if we don't consider rings and boots of speed +23, ring of acid branding glaive of pain, randarts with +2 blows, extra blow warrior, destruction giving your free artifacts, and another god knows how many exploits which made the game supereasy, once you knew how.

i proposed a fix which does not impact endgame, barely impacts anything after CL10, and which would make the game ever so slightly easier for a very limited number of people who otherwise would be stuck in a bad situation, but with the fix, those few would be otherwise very much helped.

don't want it? fine, dont have it. but please don't quote me "i have 6.5hp statistically therefore your 1hp per level is totally fine" because if there is one thing i like less than statistics, is bad interpretation of statistics.

"i have no food to eat!" "well it doesn't matter because i had two lunches, so statistically we're cool".


for those of you who don't get my argument, here is a real-life example.

i just got off of Blacklight Retribution. it's my game; i'm in sync with it. i win 80% of every match i'm in, which includes matches joined halfway. i easily do 30-5 while everyone else maybe manages 18-12.

i barely keep awake when playing. only if a high skill player comes in the match, i actually apply myself. however, i understand that what is too easy for me, is not too easy for the other people in the lobby, who struggle with basic gameplay, do not have the skills that i have developed, and that lack the experience to apply them. Therefore, i do not want the game to be made harder for me to enjoy, but rather easier for them. When you are playing bookless priest or store bough shovel, maybe you need to call it a day, but definitely you no longer qualify to give advice on how the game can appeal to new players.

[Pete Mack]

Sky--
Really, just don't expect to melee except incidentally to clear weak monsters from your patv until you get max blows with an endgame weapon. The game is not designed to permjt "melee for EXP" before that point. If you are finding that devices/archery/spellcasting is getting tedious, make a keymap for the most common combinations. For example
Keymap m2g5$ will zap a cold bolt at your current target, or prompt for a target if none is currently specified. I usually have at least 4 of these set up, 1 for devices, two for spells, and one for archery.

But do try to worry less about HP and CL, and play to your character's strengths. (Melee is not one of them.)

[Pete Mack]

It's more "playing mages as if you are a rogue," but yes. Rogues. From the help pages

A Rogue is a character that prefers to live by his cunning, but is
**capable of fighting his way out of a tight spot.

vs.

A Mage must live by his wits. He cannot hope to simply hack his way
**through the dungeon, and so must therefore use his magic to defeat,
**deceive, confuse, and escape

The easiest way to "deceive and escape" is by avoiding waking up dangerous monsters in the first place. Mage is so desperately vulnerable to death by exhuastion.

[the Invisible Stalker]

Am I missing something, or does this complaint boil down to "playing mages as if they were warriors only works if you are not unlucky"? That seems like an odd thing to be annoyed about.

[Pete Mack]

I'll sometimes buy ?bless (along with oil) improve jk throwing accuracy. This will let you take out Bullroarer at CL3.
Mage starting gear:
MB1
?recall
2 torch
~ 10 !oil
A few !CLW
5+ ?Phase
Optional
1 ?bless/!hero
MB2
Food

[Gwarl]

I really like hitting a whole bunch of monsters with one spell, so I appreciate lightning bolt (and dethanc)

Also I know this is a bit of a pile on already but:

If you can survive CL1 as a mage and reach CL2, then you're not any weaker and can just keep going to get CL3. Just takes a bit more patience than with other classes. You can just keep clearing 50' until you're ready to descend. That's how a lot of older versions and variants worked for everyone, but V has had decades of power creep now.

[Estie]

I always load up on oil with a mage. As many as I can carry without being burdened. Yeah, they miss a lot, but the oil is cheap. As I pick stuff up, if I haven't used it yet, I drop some oil so that I remain unburdened. By the time I'm CL 7 or so, it's no longer useful.

Also, I don't know why this thread has had all the talk about lightening bolt. LB is too expensive, because it always beams. MM is almost always better. One you have enough SP, acid and fire bolt are better, too. The only time that LB is good is when you've got a line of light-resistant monsters in a corridor and your MM doesn't beam often yet.

I dont even learn lightning bolt on some mages. If opportunity arises I get it, sure, but more often than not thats not the case.

[kandrc]

Your only means of killing things are (in rough order of preference) devices, bows, and spells. If you find yourself in melee range, don't fight back; escape.

I always load up on oil with a mage. As many as I can carry without being burdened. Yeah, they miss a lot, but the oil is cheap. As I pick stuff up, if I haven't used it yet, I drop some oil so that I remain unburdened. By the time I'm CL 7 or so, it's no longer useful.

Also, I don't know why this thread has had all the talk about lightening bolt. LB is too expensive, because it always beams. MM is almost always better. One you have enough SP, acid and fire bolt are better, too. The only time that LB is good is when you've got a line of light-resistant monsters in a corridor and your MM doesn't beam often yet.

[wobbly]

The no. of spell points a mage needs to escape a situation is 1. 1 sp for detect monster. A couple more to handle the fails & have a bit of back-up. Preferably another 3 for detect traps if you want to be safe about things. That's enough up to kitty-cat depth when you'll need to detect it & read ?recall straight away. What really matters is having enough ?phase to dance as long as recall takes to kick-in & enough hps to survive a bad phase. Preferably some !clw or better.

Edit: Not necessarily suggesting pushing it that close to the wire. Just saying you can keep a mage alive that low without SPs. The phase spell has a fail. If you're dependent on SPs you're already in trouble.

[Derakon]

consider that mages will at best have 9 SP by CL4, sometimes that is simply not enough to escape a situation.

This is a good thing, because the lesson you should be learning from it is "don't get into situations that even have the potential to spiral out of control". Mages from day 1 must be aware of the monsters in the vicinity, what resources they'll need to expend to kill something, what their escape routes are, and how they're going to reach those routes. That awareness must then feed into how they approach or avoid different encounters.

The bottom line is, if you find yourself in melee you have already screwed up. The reason you are frustrated by lack of HP is because you are relying on that HP to keep your character alive. But a mage should not be taking damage from the vast majority of enemies in the early game. They have no ranged attacks, and the mage does. Why are they even surviving to reach melee range? Keep them away from you, and you won't care what your HP total is.

So instead of Pete's powerdiving strategy, I suggest an alternative: try playing as if melee did not exist. Your only means of killing things are (in rough order of preference) devices, bows, and spells. If you find yourself in melee range, don't fight back; escape.

[Sky]

I understand your point. The point the rest of us are trying to make is that if you are struggling with the first three level ups, you are likely not playing to an effective strategy.
Things to consider:
* are you spending your initial cash wisely?
* are you regularly exhausting your mama, to the extent of risking your character?
* are you risking your character and wasting your starting purchases by spending too much time at low dungeon levels?
* are you choosing your fights wisely?

If you are having a particular kind of trouble at Cl 4 then you will still have the same trouble at CL30. An extra 4.5* HP points won't help you. Focusing on the special of the fist 3 character levels will tend to teach the wrong lesson.

* 3*(MHP+2)/4. 4.5HP is the mean HP boost for a HE mage, with a range of 0-12, or 3*(MHP-1)

no, the problem is exclusive to the first levels. statistically you will have a reasonable amount of HP by CL10, always.
consider that mages will at best have 9 SP by CL4, sometimes that is simply not enough to escape a situation. At this point you have no TS, no TO, maybe a could of !Phase, maybe 5~10 CLW. You *can* melee your way out of many situations, provided that you did not botch your HP rolls. I am in no way advocating a melee style for mages, but often it is needed when you first start... icky things, jackals, bats ..
hybrids are in even worse condition. you will have to melee whether you want to or not, because you don't have any other options.
it's ok to roll the occasional 1hp, but it is a problem when you get unusually bad rolls during the first level-ups, simply because the spread doesn't take into consideration real-world usage. To the RGN, doing CL43->44 and CL2->3 is the same, it doesn't care that you DON'T have 500 hp in store to rely on.

A "first three rolls" fix would basically give zero overpower and would ease the early gameplay for every newb.

[Thraalbee]

Seriously. Although a few more hp would make some difference, a different strategy would make a huge difference. Your first strategy is dependent on luck, even if the game is tweaked to accomodate this, in the long run you will be better of trying other ways instead. Speed diving for instance sounds insane but actually slow level clearing is even more insane if you look at the numbers. Finding the right balance for yourself takes trying a lot of things. Also, did you know that xp for a specific kill is reduced for each level up you gain so killing your first 《high exp target》when diving quickly is likely to be more valuable (and difficult) than if you would be grinding low xp monsters first. Mages with a wand of wonder and such are ideal for quick xp gain fron distance

[Thraalbee]

* are you regularly exhausting your mama, to the extent of risking your character?

Lol! Funny typo