what is, exactly, a warrior?

[Sky]

So, the question is, buff warriors or nerf rogues?

I know warriors can already get 1k+ damage, but that is against specific opponents and carrying swaps. Slay Evil is what really counts, and Acid vs Sauron. Being able to do 800dps vs some lich is irrelevant, because those mobs cannot kill you, only maybe cost you a RLL and a CCW.

Maybe warriors can get pConf (40), HLife (50), even i dare say, pStun (50), to make up for the 16% dps loss?

[Derakon]

Or maybe they could just get their extra blow back? We could even implement it as a flat "gain 1 bonus blow with all weapons at clvl X" like with rangers' extra shots (that should be extra might, I will never stop agitating for that ).

[Estie]

The issue is not between warriors and rogues alone, its between warriors and every other hybrid. The paladin is arguably more powerfull than the rogue in the endgame.

If big heavy weapons are to not give full blows, then that has to be implemented properly, that is affecting all classes not only the warrior. That may be hard to get right, but would fix the warrior (by nerfing other melee classes). Alternatively, giving warrior full 6 blows with MoD would do the same and is probably easier to do (buffing warrior). Either would be better than the current situation.

[Sky]

So pure casters max out at 4 blows, hybrids at 5, warriors at 6 including heavy weapons. 20% dps over a paladin would make it balanced.


Excludig randarts, because LOL. 6D5 +30 longsword +2 blows. Didnt even need slay evil.

[Thraalbee]

I don't see why Warrior needs to be balanced towards other classes. I'd prefer to keep the generalist fighter model as is is today or alternatively change it to a Melee specialist with the extra blow (as before) but much nerfed missile.

[Derakon]

I don't see why Warrior needs to be balanced towards other classes. I'd prefer to keep the generalist fighter model as is is today or alternatively change it to a Melee specialist with the extra blow (as before) but much nerfed missile.

I don't think classes necessarily need to be balanced with respect to each other, but there should be a clear reason to play as that class. E.g. you play as a rogue because you want to be stealthy and have good object detection, you play as a mage because you want to keel over when hit by a stiff breeze, you play as a ranger because you want to turn into a humanoid machinegun.

As long as each class has a good "reason to play as", we're fine.

[Sky]

In that case warriors should have pFear pCon HLife because im dumb and i want to hack mobs. Nerf ranged? I dont even carry ammunition. Bows are there for one reason, the stat boost.

CHAAAAARRGEEE!!!!

[Philip]

Huh, interesting idea. Free pStun perhaps? That's a fairly powerful skill that you need specific equipment for. Maybe a % bonus to AC, even if it's not amazingly useful. Or maybe just nerf everyone else. Give Rogues Ring of Escaping fear, but always on. Make Priests and Paladins have the "good" trait, and monsters with slay good do extra damage to them. Give Rangers extra might instead of extra shot and also take away most of their magic. Give Mages -5 CON as a class stat boost.

[Huqhox]

I don't think classes necessarily need to be balanced with respect to each other, but there should be a clear reason to play as that class. E.g. you play as a rogue because you want to be stealthy and have good object detection, you play as a mage because you want to keel over when hit by a stiff breeze, you play as a ranger because you want to turn into a humanoid machinegun.

As long as each class has a good "reason to play as", we're fine.

Exactly right. It doesn't matter if one class is 'easier' than another as long as they are a) different enough so they are different to play and b) able to defeat Morgoth in the final analysis

But as Nick pointed out, this is part of a wider discussion to be had for 4.2. Though that doesn't mean we shouldn't get all our orcs in a row ready for it

[the Invisible Stalker]

Numbers of V winners on the ladder, by class:

Mage 304
Paladin 175
Priest 226
Ranger 229
Rogue 190
Warrior 362

Now, admittedly many of those would be before the change to blows, but I'm still not convinced that there is a problem to solve here.

[Nomad]

Yep, I consider Warriors by far the easiest class to win the game with already. (Certainly the only class that I've ever actually won with personally.)

[Sky]

If i eat two sausage rolls and you eat zero sausage rolls, statistically we've both had lunch.

Warriors have a higher win rate because they are played by more people. EVERYONE so to speak, begins with warriors.
Then they try different classes and they find it's much easier to win, once you know what you are doing.

Empirically, if you place warrior as the first option, and tout it as "the easy class,that just bonks mobs on the head" you should see far more warrior wins, far less ranger / paladin / rogue wins, and almost no mage / priest wins.

[Sky]

Two different concepts. Two different posts.

Right now the advantages over rogue is a small hit bonus and a small hp bonus.
I beat the game with a half orc rogue at 1058hp and have never seen a warrior get to 1200, generally its 1160 to 1180hp. Lets say 130hp advantage.
And you get a small to hit bonus which in the endgame becomes irrelevant.

With detection, it is much easier to advance the lower CL with rogue. Around CL30, resistance helps you easily take down breathers without having to carry !rHeat.
Shield is invaluable for just about every unique fight.
You get Slow without using a slot.
You also get Haste far sooner than rods of speed and never run out of !speed.
Your TO is less likely to fail and you dont have to pay for TS or Identify.
You actually can use =escaping.
You dont need to carry food!

Just to name the more important ones.

If the warrior became a melee specialist who earns innate resistances, like the kensai of modern d&d, then i would play it.

I dont play ranger anymore because i cant be bothered to switch arrows every second.

If we had fixed quiver slots, that we could bind for, that would be great.

[kandrc]

If we had fixed quiver slots, that we could bind for, that would be great.

Back in my day, we didn't have quivers. We use a whole inventory slot for a single arrow. And we solved the problem you describe using engravings and macros. And we still played rangers for the massive damage lols.

[Philip]

Warriors are still better at killing things at clvl 1-50 or so than rogues. They're also much more straightforward to play from clvl 1-50 than rogues. They're not better at not dying, since they have bad stealth and no detection, though their extra hp is rather helpful, especially in the early game where they really do have no detection. This feels like enough differentiation to make them distinct classes, and also means there is a very good reason to play either one of them. Rogue if you want to dive, play fast, and have support spells, Warrior if you want to walk around, not die, and kill things by walking into them a couple times. If you go for powergaming, of course some classes are always going to be "weaker" than others. But unless the imbalance is serious, where one class is better at doing something than the class that is designed for it (if Paladins were better casters than Priests or something), I don't see it as such a huge problem.