what about, maxing armor class ?

[Estie]

All that said, I don't know why plain high AC alone should be so valuable.

Physical combat is the very basic of dungeoneering rogue-likes. You swing an imaginary weapon to inflict damage and wear imaginary armour to prevent it, in simulation of combat in medieval times.

Adding other layers with magic and special attacks is great and has been done more than once at various points to increase complexity. But look at the way high resists were implemented: great care was taken to not make the old base elements superfluous. Resist base is as essential a part of the kit as it was in olden Moria versions before high elements got introduced.

In contrast, base elemental resists dominate physical protection. I would like to see a game where you use a magic full plate mail over a robe of resistance (at least as a melee character). Carry the robe as a switch for special occasions, but dont run around "naked" and expect to live.

Diablo I would be an example of this situation. If you unequip your heavy armour as a warrior, you lose your ability to fight through tough encounters.
Elemental resists matter too, but the basis is always the physical combat.

[Gwarl]

In contrast, base elemental resists dominate physical protection. I would like to see a game where you use a magic full plate mail over a robe of resistance (at least as a melee character). Carry the robe as a switch for special occasions, but dont run around "naked" and expect to live.

I actually did switch out a robe of resistance for average adamantite plate in a recent game, and was indeed far tougher against regular monsters even though it left me with some base resistance holes. Like I say Angband's system really holds up quite well here, especially in comparison to other games. It isn't broke and doesn't need fixing IMO.

[Estie]

I actually did switch out a robe of resistance for average adamantite plate in a recent game, and was indeed far tougher against regular monsters even though it left me with some base resistance holes. Like I say Angband's system really holds up quite well here, especially in comparison to other games. It isn't broke and doesn't need fixing IMO.

Well I strongly disagree. Not saying you cant use Adamantite plate and win, but what was your speed like ? Did you carry all the consumables you wanted ? At which depth did you find that plate ? Why do you prefer plate over resist robe and just use more phase door scrolls ?

If I play ironman and want to win badly, I dont fool around and use the robe. Situations where the plate is better do exist, but are far too rare to make precautions necessary.

[Gwarl]

Well I strongly disagree. Not saying you cant use Adamantite plate and win, but what was your speed like ? Did you carry all the consumables you wanted ? At which depth did you find that plate ? Why do you prefer plate over resist robe and just use more phase door scrolls ?

If I play ironman and want to win badly, I dont fool around and use the robe. Situations where the plate is better do exist, but are far too rare to make precautions necessary.

Significantly better in most situations, since most of my enemies weren't using elemental attacks. These days I will tolerate a -1 or -2 speed. I found it in the DL20's IIRC.

Honestly, try consciously aiming for high AC when playing and then switch it all out for some much lower AC gear and see if you notice that you take more damage. the difference between robe/adamantite was huge, I will sometimes take a -1 to speed to switch soft leather armour for brigandine. It is worth it. Another case in point is red book caster's shield spell - you can turn on your AC bonus and notice you're getting hurt less even when your AC is already high.

[Sky]

just to be clear, i don't think the current system is bad. currently, with AC 200 you can melee greater wyrms, so obviously the AC system doesn't need a buff. i was just asking what happens if you try to break the numbers through the use of randarts .. minmaxing, so to speak.

now, looking at practically every P&P RPG ever, AC has a spread that, if you go above it, mobs will simply not hit you. also most mobs in traditional RPGs do their damage by melee, or otherwise by melee attack rolls.

in the D&D world for example, if you happen to find a plate +5, shield +5 and ring of protection +3, you are pretty much untouchable by anything, Tarrasque included.
(note that, in D&D, you get far more reduction from the inherent AC of the item, rather than the magic bonus. i.e a +2 plate is [7,+2] and it's already a substantial magic item)

also, the melee system is based on a yes-or-no value, and it's not expected to exceed a range, so if you go above a certain value, instead of getting diminishing returns, you become invincible.

if anything, i would prefer a system where lighter armour offers less protection. the hit penality (-1,-1) etc ... were a good tradeoff and i don't know why they have been removed.

a robe of resist fire should be great for resisting fire, not axe blows.

i'd also like to see more importance being given to the to-hit values, compared to the to-dam value.

[Estie]

Significantly better in most situations, since most of my enemies weren't using elemental attacks. These days I will tolerate a -1 or -2 speed. I found it in the DL20's IIRC.

Honestly, try consciously aiming for high AC when playing and then switch it all out for some much lower AC gear and see if you notice that you take more damage. the difference between robe/adamantite was huge, I will sometimes take a -1 to speed to switch soft leather armour for brigandine. It is worth it. Another case in point is red book caster's shield spell - you can turn on your AC bonus and notice you're getting hurt less even when your AC is already high.

I have been playing since the Moria days and my assessment of the value of AC doesnt stem from lack of experimentation.
I am using the shield spell in the right situations and yes you take less damage in heavy armour. That is not in question. What is in question is what are you dropping when pressed, AC or resist ? AC is luxury, not necessity.
Getting double breathed at without resistance kills without giving you a chance to react, while you dont commonly die in 1 round from melee.

[Pete Mack]

You might want to try Sil...

Significantly better in most situations, since most of my enemies weren't using elemental attacks. These days I will tolerate a -1 or -2 speed. I found it in the DL20's IIRC.

[Philip]

Gwarl appears to have an entirely different style of play from what is standard (and optimal).

Most of us try not to be in any situations where we could die. In order not to die, we control our situations (detection, teleportation, healing, LOS), and make sure that in no turn is it possible that we die. It doesn't always work out, but that's the idea. This means increasing HP and increasing resistances, so that the maximum damage goes down, and also increasing speed so that we can't be double-moved. AC has a relatively minor effect on the maximum damage, and a moderate effect on average damage, which makes it unimportant. This is the same reason Nether resistance is so much less valuable than the other resists. Average damage reduction conserves healing, and if you're using scarce resources in a fight, something is clearly wrong. If you're not using scarce resources, it doesn't matter very much at all.

Gwarl seems to focus on what is useful in most situations. This, I believe, is a mistake, since most situations aren't ones you die in. Most of the time, -1 or -2 speed won't give the monster a double-move, but the danger of a double-move is significant. Similarly, most monsters won't threaten you with resistable attacks, but the ones that will are dangerous. If you create a 1% chance of dying in 1% of situations (magic attacks and double-moves), and reduce your chance of dying by 0.1% in 5% of situations (scary melee), then you've increased your chance of dying per situation significantly. In reality, the calculation is probably going to be even worse.

This seems like it would help if you die a lot in melee, but if that happens, the problem is your playstyle, not your AC. Either you don't have enough escapes, or you wait too long to heal, or you choose to engage the wrong monsters. The only one that AC helps with is the third, since it allows you to engage more monsters, but it's not a significant effect.

[Sky]

you guys are focusing too much on the damage reduction and not on the to-hit chances. what matters is that "the orc misses you" message.

[Gwarl]

It's true I'm a very risky player and happily accept a 5% chance of death to check out some promising loot. This is probably why I've never actually won. I do enjoy Sil though.

AC vs resistances seems like a false dichotomy though. I think AC works well and resistances are broken. I'd like to see Oangband style partial resistances find their way into V.