Traps, again

[Sky]

ok.

i dont like traps being just a forced skill check. and also i do not like the fact that, with the lowered disarm skill, you will have to be super-careful with trapdoors and summons. this translates to walking really slow, which isn't really that much fun.

the current traps are not good because, except for trapdoors and summons, you can just walk into them because you are immune to practically everything that traps do.

you can detect, which is ok, but even with detect you can still find yourself into situations where you have not been able to detect. you might not have a rod. you might not have had time, or for other reasons you need to walk through an area which you have not detected - for example, your ONE rod is still charging, and you do not want to wake a unique.

with the current traps, you do not need to detect anymore - they just appear in front of you .. which traps simply do not do. otherwise, they aren't traps. the disarm rate is lower, so you will set them off more often, which is disastrous for summon / trapdoor. and as a player, the only thing you can do, is to walk REEEEEALLLY slow. i don't think this is fun at all, i would rather have a detect mechanic, and if there is a problem with detect being too thorough, then simply make it into an endgame tool - increase the recharge rate, force players to carry rods of detect traps, increase the rarity.

4.5 traps are not bad, they are just weak. 4.5 detect isn't bad, it's just too strong.

now, nick's intentions of making traps more varied and interesting is laudable, but they need to be something that the player can work with. if i detect my heart out and still fall into a trapdoor, i would be pissed. And the current "oh no, i dared keep the walk button pressed while walking through a corridor" is not really exciting. (with detect, i simply walk around the trapdoors)
At least, change the default behaviour to have traps stop you and force you to shift+d, with "auto-disarm" being an option.

rockfalls, lava pits, all that stuff - cool. i like it.

(i think the magic mapping thing is pretty straightforward. staff of and scroll of both do the same and they cost peanuts + 1 slot. generally speaking, i just think ALL rods should have their recharge rate slowed.)

[AnonymousHero]

In general though, I think highly-visible dungeon obstacles make for a much more interesting game than invisible tripwires and trapdoors do. Think about other dungeon crawlers that you play -- do you more enjoy dodging the periodic swinging axe blades, or having a mine explode your legs off because you failed to realize that that floor tile was a pressure plate? Hidden traps just aren't fun -- they don't create any interesting decisions for the player. At best they may introduce added pressure to the current situation, but the vast majority of the time, they get triggered outside of combat, where the player can safely take the time to recover from whatever the trap did.

I suggested awhile back some variations on traps-as-terrain, including e.g. a room where every tile is a pressure plate that causes spikes to shoot from the floor one turn after it's stepped on. I think that approach is really the approach most likely to result in more fun gameplay. It would of course require substantial coding effort, however.

This is the right answer. Personally, I'd say that these "traps-as-terrain" should just either always be visible when in LoS, or automatically become visible at light radius range. The latter would also make light radius slightly more useful as a stat. (It would give you slightly more options for route planning when moving away from enemies into unknown territory.)

[AnonymousHero]

everyone always detect traps IF they are under control - not confused, blind, being chased by mobs, and in possession of a rod of detection.
by the way, i forgot to mention that, the "DTrap area" also shows you how far you have detected objects.

... which is almost all the time, at least for non-ironman. The radius of detection is so large (to avoid even worse detection tedium) that it's extremely rare to ever stumble on a trap except through inattention. (Except early game, of course.)

[Derakon]

you could move the rod of detection up in rarity to rod of healing levels, and bring down in rarity the rod of magic mapping (since there is a cheap staff + scrolls that do that already).
you still get to have rod of Dtraps, but it's an invetory slot for that item alone.

Could you please expand on how you think this would improve gameplay? What problems does it solve / how does it make the game better? It's not self-evident (to me, at least) from your post.

[Antoine]

I didn't say they were, but I'm saying that I would rather have obstacles than traps. Would Angband be so bad if it didn't have traps?

I think it would be a shame to lose them?

A.

[Sky]

you could move the rod of detection up in rarity to rod of healing levels, and bring down in rarity the rod of magic mapping (since there is a cheap staff + scrolls that do that already).
you still get to have rod of Dtraps, but it's an invetory slot for that item alone.

[krazyhades]

Hall of Mist's cave wall traps can be pretty interesting, because:
1) they're only in cave walls (a special bright red tile), and you can expect there may well be *some* kind of trap there, rather than being scared of every random tile
2) they effect monsters as well as players, so they become elements of tactical combat
3) there can be a "well is it worth it to intentionally risk it in order to pick up that thing on the far side" element, which can be neat

[t4nk]

Traps are crap in pretty much every game that I've ever played. They're essentially invisible monsters that don't move... you can't make that very interesting. So leave them only in vaults - since that's where they actually do something - and don't generate them anywhere else. Then you can just restore the old mechanics (detection, searching) and it won't be too obnoxious.

edit: Some arguments:
1) I think that makes some sense from "realism" point of view. Why is the perfectly good dungeon (which is pretty densely populated) littered with traps as if it's a war zone? OTOH, traps in vaults are more plausible, since vaults look like something that is supposed to be heavily guarded.
2) That will bring back old decisions (e.g., if I'm playing a warrior, should I keep a rod of detect traps, or devote this slot to something else?), and old advantage of mages. Rogues would get to choose whether to use unreliable "manual" disarming, or a wand of disarming (at the expense of an inven slot), or ignore the vaults for the time being... etc.

[Derakon]

'Highly-visible dungeon obstacles' are fine, you can put in lava / stationery monsters / turrets / whatever, but to me they aren't traps. Traps are things that are hidden until you either detect them or fall victim to them.

I didn't say they were, but I'm saying that I would rather have obstacles than traps. Would Angband be so bad if it didn't have traps?

[Antoine]

> In general though, I think highly-visible dungeon obstacles make for a much more interesting game than invisible tripwires and trapdoors do.

'Highly-visible dungeon obstacles' are fine, you can put in lava / stationery monsters / turrets / whatever, but to me they aren't traps. Traps are things that are hidden until you either detect them or fall victim to them.

A.

[Derakon]

OK, here is a proposal which possibly retains the surprise element of traps while not enforcing detection:

• All traps are detected only on stepping onto them, at which point they become 'active'
• Once the trap is stepped on, the player can choose either to attempt to disarm, or to step off the trap
• A failed attempt to disarm while on the trap sets it off
• Stepping off an active trap is completely safe, but the trap remains active (and visible), so the player can't now retreat over it without disarming or accepting the effects
• There is no trap detection, and no noticing before activating the trap - visible means active

Please find the flaws in this proposal, or give opinions, positive or negative.

I would modulate this to be "once you step onto a trap, your options are a) try to disarm, or b) try to evade (by moving to another tile); in either case, if you fail, the trap is triggered." Thus the player may be surprised by the trap, but they still have a consequential choice to make. Plus it makes a bit more sense IMO for a trap, once stepped on, to already be "activated" and thus the player should not be able to just walk away from it.

In general though, I think highly-visible dungeon obstacles make for a much more interesting game than invisible tripwires and trapdoors do. Think about other dungeon crawlers that you play -- do you more enjoy dodging the periodic swinging axe blades, or having a mine explode your legs off because you failed to realize that that floor tile was a pressure plate? Hidden traps just aren't fun -- they don't create any interesting decisions for the player. At best they may introduce added pressure to the current situation, but the vast majority of the time, they get triggered outside of combat, where the player can safely take the time to recover from whatever the trap did.

I suggested awhile back some variations on traps-as-terrain, including e.g. a room where every tile is a pressure plate that causes spikes to shoot from the floor one turn after it's stepped on. I think that approach is really the approach most likely to result in more fun gameplay. It would of course require substantial coding effort, however.

[Antoine]

My proposed solution remains:
- traps are hidden until detected
- not all characters have easy access to magical trap detection
- but traps are only found in certain predictable locations (e.g. in the centre of a rectangular room, in the centre of a 4-way junction, in spaces surrounded by secret doors, in certain spots in vaults and special rooms), so
- any character can avoid traps by moving in certain cautious ways, and
- to avoid tedium, a character who suspects they are next to a trap can detect it with 100% certainty by hitting 's' once.

A.

[Nomad]

Remove trap detection and reintroduce perception (passive searching)? In that case, you keep the current system, but instead of automatically detecting traps, you need to pass a perception check. And if you trigger the trap, you still get a saving throw right?

Perhaps also restore the old amulets/rings of Searching, but as a binary on/off item that gives you automatic 100% trap-detection? Then weaker characters would have the option of trading a useful item slot for a guarantee of safety against traps.

And/or you could use the current division into physical vs. magical traps to give mages a leg-up against traps by giving them auto-detection of the magical ones as a class trait. (And maybe rogues auto-detection of physical ones?)

[Mondkalb]

Remove trap detection and reintroduce perception (passive searching)? In that case, you keep the current system, but instead of automatically detecting traps, you need to pass a perception check. And if you trigger the trap, you still get a saving throw right?

Hm, and bring charisma back and rename it perception? ^^

[PowerWyrm]

Remove trap detection and reintroduce perception (passive searching)? In that case, you keep the current system, but instead of automatically detecting traps, you need to pass a perception check. And if you trigger the trap, you still get a saving throw right?